Control-C conundrum

Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

I've done extensive keybinding based on the recommendations here:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html

What follows is an example of my strategy
;; Leading prefix for all bindings
(defvar tj-leader "C-c " "First keystroke for all keymap prefixes")
;; One example of a prefix command
defvar tj-go-map (make-sparse-keymap) "Navigation")
(define-prefix-command 'tj-go-map)
(global-set-key (kbd (concat tj-leader "g")) 'tj-go-map)

Any number of bindings, all beginning with C-c follow from that
scheme.

This means that I can change bindings so that they begin with
something other than C-c with one code change: the first 'defvar.

Here's my problem : 
I have severe arthritis in my thumbs. When I use fingers in my left
hand, bending down to reach the "c" key, I will shortly experience a
lot of pain in the base of my left thumb.

I can easily switch to C-l or C-o as the first keystroke for all
prefix definitions just by redefining 'tj-leader.

I'm aware that major or minor modes may use C-l or C-o, but I don't
have any of the thumb pain when I use either C-l or C-o.

One work-around that I have been considering is add-hook'ing an
alternative binding (say, in place of C-o => C-o C-o) if I use a
mode that remaps C-o.

I'd welcome any comments or suggestions, :) including thumb surgery.

thanks
-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[John Mastro]

Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> wrote:
> Here's my problem :
> I have severe arthritis in my thumbs. When I use fingers in my left
> hand, bending down to reach the "c" key, I will shortly experience a
> lot of pain in the base of my left thumb.
>
> I can easily switch to C-l or C-o as the first keystroke for all
> prefix definitions just by redefining 'tj-leader.
>
> I'm aware that major or minor modes may use C-l or C-o, but I don't
> have any of the thumb pain when I use either C-l or C-o.

I say go for it (change `tj-leader' to `C-l' or `C-o'). If there are
important conflicts, you'll find them and figure out an alternative.

> One work-around that I have been considering is add-hook'ing an
> alternative binding (say, in place of C-o => C-o C-o) if I use a
> mode that remaps C-o.

Sounds reasonable to me. Since you're talking about rebinding a single
key, I don't think there will be an unmanageable number of conflicts.

I can't think of any minor modes that rebind `C-l' at the moment,
although I'm sure they exist.

-- 
john

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* John Mastro <john.b.mastro@gmail.com> [150603 16:50]:
> Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> wrote:
> > Here's my problem :
> > I have severe arthritis in my thumbs. When I use fingers in my left
> > hand, bending down to reach the "c" key, I will shortly experience a
> > lot of pain in the base of my left thumb.
> >
> > I can easily switch to C-l or C-o as the first keystroke for all
> > prefix definitions just by redefining 'tj-leader.
> >
> > I'm aware that major or minor modes may use C-l or C-o, but I don't
> > have any of the thumb pain when I use either C-l or C-o.
> 
> I say go for it (change `tj-leader' to `C-l' or `C-o'). If there are
> important conflicts, you'll find them and figure out an alternative.
> 
> > One work-around that I have been considering is add-hook'ing an
> > alternative binding (say, in place of C-o => C-o C-o) if I use a
> > mode that remaps C-o.
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me. Since you're talking about rebinding a single
> key, I don't think there will be an unmanageable number of conflicts.
> 
> I can't think of any minor modes that rebind `C-l' at the moment,
> although I'm sure they exist.
  Thanks, John.
  cheers
-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[William Hatch]

Another option you might consider if you have pain is using one of the modes that let you use 1 key at a time, such as evil (which I use), god-mode, etc. Then you can completely avoid holding modifiers, if that contributes to your pain. Also you can try sticky keys on your OS for similar effects. I don't know if it helps you, but it helps a lot of people.
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* William Hatch <willghatch@gmail.com> [150604 07:36]:
> Another option you might consider if you have pain is using one of
> the modes that let you use 1 key at a time, such as evil (which I
> use), god-mode, etc. Then you can completely avoid holding
> modifiers, if that contributes to your pain. Also you can try
> sticky keys on your OS for similar effects. I don't know if it
> helps you, but it helps a lot of people.

  That is definitely something I am going to look into as an
  alternative. In fact, my other editor (usually lauched from
  Midnight Commander) is vim.

  thanks
-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Robert Thorpe]

Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> writes:

> * William Hatch <willghatch@gmail.com> [150604 07:36]:
>> Another option you might consider if you have pain is using one of
>> the modes that let you use 1 key at a time, such as evil (which I
>> use), god-mode, etc. Then you can completely avoid holding
>> modifiers, if that contributes to your pain. Also you can try
>> sticky keys on your OS for similar effects. I don't know if it
>> helps you, but it helps a lot of people.
>
>   That is definitely something I am going to look into as an
>   alternative. In fact, my other editor (usually lauched from
>   Midnight Commander) is vim.

Do you use GUI Emacs?  If so, then another possibility is to map the
keys that can't be mapped in the terminal.  For example, C-; C-' C-#
etc.

Like other have said, it often easier to use the modifier key at the
other side of the keyboard.  Also, on desktop keyboards it's often easy
to hold down ctrl with the knuckle of the smallest finger.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> [150604 14:31]:
> Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> writes:
> 
> > * William Hatch <willghatch@gmail.com> [150604 07:36]:
> >> Another option you might consider if you have pain is using one of
> >> the modes that let you use 1 key at a time, such as evil (which I
> >> use), god-mode, etc. Then you can completely avoid holding
> >> modifiers, if that contributes to your pain. Also you can try
> >> sticky keys on your OS for similar effects. I don't know if it
> >> helps you, but it helps a lot of people.
> >
> >   That is definitely something I am going to look into as an
> >   alternative. In fact, my other editor (usually lauched from
> >   Midnight Commander) is vim.
> 
> Do you use GUI Emacs?  If so, then another possibility is to map the
> keys that can't be mapped in the terminal.  For example, C-; C-' C-#
> etc.

 On the Mac I generally use terminal mode, and on netbooks via ssh I
 am always using terminal mode.

 C-; is the preferred alternative when I use GUI emacs. 

> Like other have said, it often easier to use the modifier key at the
> other side of the keyboard.  Also, on desktop keyboards it's often easy
> to hold down ctrl with the knuckle of the smallest finger.
  On the HHL2 keyboard, control is right by my pinky. On the
  netbooks I remap capslock to control via xmodmap so it is in the
  same place.
  thanks
-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Eric S Fraga]

On Thursday,  4 Jun 2015 at 07:55, William Hatch wrote:
> Another option you might consider if you have pain is using one of the
> modes that let you use 1 key at a time, such as evil (which I use),

+1

I used to suffer from RSI but managed to recover.  The solution was to
(a) not use the mouse at all and (b) avoid key chording as much as
possible.  Being addicted to emacs, evil was a godsend!

(and ratpoison as a window manager but OT...)

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xFFFCF67D
: in Emacs 24.4.1 + Ma Gnus v0.14 + evil-git-ff74cfb
: BBDB version 3.1.2 (2015-05-23 14:39:47 -0500)

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Bob Proulx]

Tim Johnson wrote:
> I've done extensive keybinding based on the recommendations here:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html

Those are the rules for people producing code for other people to
use.  These are packages and modes distributed with emacs and as 3rd
party resources to emacs.  If you wrote a new mode and wanted to
distribute the sources for other people to use then you should follow
those rules so that other people will be able to interact with them.

> I'm aware that major or minor modes may use C-l or C-o, but I don't
> have any of the thumb pain when I use either C-l or C-o.

If you are making your own keybindings for your own use then you are
free to do anything you wish.  Including violate those rules for your
own purposes.  Those key binding conventions don't apply to the end
user.  I say do whatever you feel is best for you.  Pain does not grow
character.  Pain is painful.

> Here's my problem : 
> I have severe arthritis in my thumbs. When I use fingers in my left
> hand, bending down to reach the "c" key, I will shortly experience a
> lot of pain in the base of my left thumb.

Your keyboard seems different from the familiar keyboards.  Are you
using your thumb for the control key?  I wouldn't assume you were
using the thumb for the 'c' key.  I know there are many keyboard
variations available and possible.  Many of the ergo keyboards are
very "interesting".  :-)

For me on my US IBM PC 104 type keyboard (but without the keypad) the
Alt keys used for Meta are adjacent to the spacebar.  I use my thumbs
for the Alt key.  The Cntrl key is on the outside under the shift
keys.  I wouldn't be able to use my thumb for the Cntrl key.
Therefore my question.

I and many people think the position of the Cntrl key is inconvenient.
I remap the control key.  For me I remap the CapsLock key as my Cntrl
key.  (I am holding a real VT102 keyboard in my lap as I type this and
the Cntrl key is to the left of the 'A' outside of the CapLock.)  I
use my left pinky for the Cntrl.  Having grown up on HP-UX systems I
also remap the stock left Cntrl key as an ESC key as it was on HP-UX
HIL keyboard.  I use my left pinky for ESC on the lower left as that
is more convenient to me than the upper left and matches the old HP-UX
HIL keybaord.  I habitually use my left thumb for the Alt (meta).

Perhaps you could say a few words about your keyboard and typing
environment?  Are you using an ergo keyboard?

> I'd welcome any comments or suggestions, :) including thumb surgery.

We always joke about foot pedals.  However those do exist!  I am
somewhat joking now suggesting them but if I were dealing with the
problem it might be something to consider.

Bob

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Jonathan Groll]

On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 22:47:38 -0600, Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you could say a few words about your keyboard and typing
> environment?  Are you using an ergo keyboard?

No matter what keyboard you use, I've always thought that the idea is
to always use BOTH the left and right 'modifier' keys. So, what I am
saying is that should you want to type say 'C-p' then the left hand
presses the left control key and the right hand presses the P key. For
'C-c' the right hand presses the right control key and the left hand
presses the C key. The fingers of one hand shouldn't be 'scrunched
up', and both hands should work in concert.

Of course, if you swap control with caps-lock then there isn't a
caps-lock key on the right hand side of the keyboard, so I'm not sure
what folks do in that situation.

I'm a happy Kinesis Advantage keyboard user, and that keyboard
promotes the above described usage of both sides of the keyboard. I'm
not sure how well the Advantage will work out with a thumb injury
though as you do use your thumbs quite a bit with it. Kinesis sell a
three pedal foot switch that works with their keyboards. 

Cheers,
Jonathan
--
jjg: Jonathan J. Groll : groll co za
has_one { :blog => "http://bloggroll.com" }
La deviation pour chauffeur de camion - My driver likes camels.

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Bob Proulx]

Jonathan Groll wrote:
> No matter what keyboard you use, I've always thought that the idea is
> to always use BOTH the left and right 'modifier' keys. So, what I am
> saying is that should you want to type say 'C-p' then the left hand
> presses the left control key and the right hand presses the P key. For
> 'C-c' the right hand presses the right control key and the left hand
> presses the C key. The fingers of one hand shouldn't be 'scrunched
> up', and both hands should work in concert.
>
> Of course, if you swap control with caps-lock then there isn't a
> caps-lock key on the right hand side of the keyboard, so I'm not sure
> what folks do in that situation.

Having typed for years on keyboards prior to the IBM PC keyboard with
the multiple control keys I could only use the left pinky for the
control key.  The vt100 doesn't have a control key on the right side
for example but only one on the left.  Therefore my habits were
already set by the time a right control key became available.  These
days I mostly use the right control for the Compose key.

I type relatively fast but have acquired some less than perfect habits
over the years.  C-b is the example for me.  The 'b' key is a left
pointing finger key.  However with the left pinky on the control,
especially on the older keyboards where control was left further
outside of the capslock, that was quite a stretch!  I got into the
habit of using left pinky for control and right pointing finger for
the 'b' key.  That works great.  Until you are on a split ergonomic
keyboard.  On those with C-b my right finger usually taps into a solid
plastic spot with no key!  That is my biggest worst bad habit for
typing that always shows up on a split ergo keyboard. :-/

All habits can be learned and unlearned with practice.  I am
completely bilingual with regards to switching between emacs and vi
for example.  But I never picked up the Dvorak key layout.  I never
picked up using the right control or alt/meta.  Some habits are deeper
and harder than others.

> I'm a happy Kinesis Advantage keyboard user, and that keyboard
> promotes the above described usage of both sides of the keyboard. I'm
> not sure how well the Advantage will work out with a thumb injury
> though as you do use your thumbs quite a bit with it. Kinesis sell a
> three pedal foot switch that works with their keyboards. 

I have friends who use that keyboard and also seem happy with it.  Two
of them use it in Dvorak key layout mode for double the benefit.
Since I am using my trusty classic ThinkPad keyboard a lot I think it
would be a hard thing for me to learn.  And it is an expensive
keyboard.

Bob

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Jude DaShiell]

Not every computer user has two hands.  Some of them were born with one 
or both missing.  Still others did a little work for certain Governments 
and had one or two hands blown off.

On Sat, 6 Jun 2015, Bob Proulx wrote:

> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 13:45:58
> From: Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Control-C conundrum
> 
> Jonathan Groll wrote:
>> No matter what keyboard you use, I've always thought that the idea is
>> to always use BOTH the left and right 'modifier' keys. So, what I am
>> saying is that should you want to type say 'C-p' then the left hand
>> presses the left control key and the right hand presses the P key. For
>> 'C-c' the right hand presses the right control key and the left hand
>> presses the C key. The fingers of one hand shouldn't be 'scrunched
>> up', and both hands should work in concert.
>>
>> Of course, if you swap control with caps-lock then there isn't a
>> caps-lock key on the right hand side of the keyboard, so I'm not sure
>> what folks do in that situation.
>
> Having typed for years on keyboards prior to the IBM PC keyboard with
> the multiple control keys I could only use the left pinky for the
> control key.  The vt100 doesn't have a control key on the right side
> for example but only one on the left.  Therefore my habits were
> already set by the time a right control key became available.  These
> days I mostly use the right control for the Compose key.
>
> I type relatively fast but have acquired some less than perfect habits
> over the years.  C-b is the example for me.  The 'b' key is a left
> pointing finger key.  However with the left pinky on the control,
> especially on the older keyboards where control was left further
> outside of the capslock, that was quite a stretch!  I got into the
> habit of using left pinky for control and right pointing finger for
> the 'b' key.  That works great.  Until you are on a split ergonomic
> keyboard.  On those with C-b my right finger usually taps into a solid
> plastic spot with no key!  That is my biggest worst bad habit for
> typing that always shows up on a split ergo keyboard. :-/
>
> All habits can be learned and unlearned with practice.  I am
> completely bilingual with regards to switching between emacs and vi
> for example.  But I never picked up the Dvorak key layout.  I never
> picked up using the right control or alt/meta.  Some habits are deeper
> and harder than others.
>
>> I'm a happy Kinesis Advantage keyboard user, and that keyboard
>> promotes the above described usage of both sides of the keyboard. I'm
>> not sure how well the Advantage will work out with a thumb injury
>> though as you do use your thumbs quite a bit with it. Kinesis sell a
>> three pedal foot switch that works with their keyboards.
>
> I have friends who use that keyboard and also seem happy with it.  Two
> of them use it in Dvorak key layout mode for double the benefit.
> Since I am using my trusty classic ThinkPad keyboard a lot I think it
> would be a hard thing for me to learn.  And it is an expensive
> keyboard.
>
> Bob
>
>

-- 

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> [150603 21:16]:
> Tim Johnson wrote:
> > I've done extensive keybinding based on the recommendations here:
> > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html
> 
> Perhaps you could say a few words about your keyboard and typing
> environment?  Are you using an ergo keyboard?
 
  I use a Happy Hacking Lite2 Keyboard (non-mac), for the most part,
  attached to a Mac Mini with OS X. I have a numeric keypad on the
  left which I've also set up for emacs and a logitech trackball on
  the right.

  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard
  Second image on right for similar model.

  Alternatively I use any of several netbooks. Those are running
  lubuntu with fluxbox and have the control and capslock switched
  via xmodmap. Generally I'm ssh'd onto the Mac from a netbook.

  I seldom use the 'alt' key, prefering Ctl-[ or ESC. ESC is on the
  left on all machines that I have to use.

> > I'd welcome any comments or suggestions, :) including thumb surgery.
> 
> We always joke about foot pedals.  However those do exist!  I am
> somewhat joking now suggesting them but if I were dealing with the
> problem it might be something to consider.
  Looking into foot pedals.... Fortunately for me, I am semi-retired
  and what emacs work I do is at home and almost never for more than
  two hours.

-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> [150604 07:36]:
> * Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> [150603 21:16]:
> > Tim Johnson wrote:
> > > I've done extensive keybinding based on the recommendations here:
> > > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html
> > 
> > Perhaps you could say a few words about your keyboard and typing
> > environment?  Are you using an ergo keyboard?
>  
>   I use a Happy Hacking Lite2 Keyboard (non-mac), for the most part,
>   attached to a Mac Mini with OS X. I have a numeric keypad on the
>   left which I've also set up for emacs and a logitech trackball on
>   the right.
> 
>   See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard
>   Second image on right for similar model.
    I should have looked at that image more closely. Mine is a bit
	different. On mine, to left of spacebar from closes to furthest:
	win, alt, fn
	to right of spacebar from closes to furthest :
	win, alt
-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Bob Proulx]

Tim Johnson wrote:
>   I use a Happy Hacking Lite2 Keyboard (non-mac), for the most part,
>   attached to a Mac Mini with OS X. I have a numeric keypad on the
>   left which I've also set up for emacs and a logitech trackball on
>   the right.

I also own a Happy Hacker Lite 2.  The one with the cursor keys on the
lower right side.

  http://www.pfusystems.com/embedded-keyboard/hhkb/index.html

The keys are excellent.  The left half is perfect for me.  The right
half has a different key layout than the IBM PC with the short enter
and gives me difficulty.  In particular the Delete key give me
problems because I type fast with lots of mistakes and lots of hitting
of the backspace key.  On the HHL2 it is located in a different spot
and I always end up hitting the backslash instead.  If that one key,
Delete, were in the same place as the IBM PC keyboard Backspace then I
think I would adapt better to the rearrangement of the backslash and
tilde keys.  But because of that difference in arrangement I moved
away from it.  That keyboard is now in my traveling computer parts bag
for use plugging into headless systems.  It is a nice keyboard.  But I
didn't adapt to it for full time use.

>   Alternatively I use any of several netbooks. Those are running
>   lubuntu with fluxbox and have the control and capslock switched
>   via xmodmap. Generally I'm ssh'd onto the Mac from a netbook.

Most of the netbooks have squished compact keyboards with additional
keys rearranged.  You must be a person who can adapt to different
keyboards easier than I do.  Good for you.  Bad for me.  I find it
difficult to use the compacted keyboards and it is worse when random
keys are moved to non-standard locations.

>   I seldom use the 'alt' key, prefering Ctl-[ or ESC. ESC is on the
>   left on all machines that I have to use.

Me too.  For normal things such as M-w for me it is ESC-w.  However
for more complex combinations such as M-^ that would require an
awkward move of the left pinky.  For that I tend to use left shift-alt
with thumb and forefinger and then ^ with the right forefinger.

Bob

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> [150606 10:02]:
> Tim Johnson wrote:
> >   I use a Happy Hacking Lite2 Keyboard (non-mac), for the most part,
> >   attached to a Mac Mini with OS X. I have a numeric keypad on the
> >   left which I've also set up for emacs and a logitech trackball on
> >   the right.
> 
> I also own a Happy Hacker Lite 2.  The one with the cursor keys on the
> lower right side.
> 
>   http://www.pfusystems.com/embedded-keyboard/hhkb/index.html
> 
> The keys are excellent.  The left half is perfect for me.  The right
> half has a different key layout than the IBM PC with the short enter
> and gives me difficulty.  In particular the Delete key give me
> problems because I type fast with lots of mistakes and lots of hitting
> of the backspace key.  On the HHL2 it is located in a different spot
> and I always end up hitting the backslash instead.  If that one key,
> Delete, were in the same place as the IBM PC keyboard Backspace then I
> think I would adapt better to the rearrangement of the backslash and
> tilde keys.  But because of that difference in arrangement I moved
> away from it.  That keyboard is now in my traveling computer parts bag
> for use plugging into headless systems.  It is a nice keyboard.  But I
> didn't adapt to it for full time use.
 
  I have not had the pleasure of using a lot of really good
  keyboards. My HHL2 (identical to yours) fits my hands better than
  any other that I have used.
  
  Someday, I'd like to spend even more money and get a mechanical
  keyboard even better than HHL2. Recommedations are welcome.

  I've almost always worked from home with pretty good control over
  my schedule and take frequent breaks. My wife is a physical
  therapist and raises hell with me if I spend more than two hours
  on the keyboard.

  [Blushing] I'm a bad boy. I map C-h to
  'delete-backward-char.[/Blushing]

  - cheers -

-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Haines Brown]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 05:33:56PM -0800, Tim Johnson wrote:
   
>   Someday, I'd like to spend even more money and get a mechanical
>   keyboard even better than HHL2. Recommedations are welcome.

In the 1990s I bought a stock of the IBM M5 keyboards for $5 apiece. You
might look into them. 

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* Haines Brown <haines@histomat.net> [150611 07:11]:
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 05:33:56PM -0800, Tim Johnson wrote:
>    
> >   Someday, I'd like to spend even more money and get a mechanical
> >   keyboard even better than HHL2. Recommedations are welcome.
> 
> In the 1990s I bought a stock of the IBM M5 keyboards for $5 apiece. You
> might look into them. 
  They are on my radar screen. Thanks 

-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Bob Proulx]

Tim Johnson wrote:
> > Tim Johnson wrote:
> > >   Someday, I'd like to spend even more money and get a mechanical
> > >   keyboard even better than HHL2. Recommedations are welcome.
> > 
> > In the 1990s I bought a stock of the IBM M5 keyboards for $5 apiece. You
> > might look into them. 
>
>   They are on my radar screen. Thanks 

The classic IBM Model M keyboard is still available new today and in a
USB version.  Unicomp manufactured the original keyboards for IBM and
now sell them direct.

  http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/UKBD/UNI0P4A

Note however that I do NOT own one of these myself.  So this is simply
a pointer and not a recommendation since I am not using a Model M
myself.  I am looking for a quieter keyboard not a louder one and
people complain my current keyboard is already too loud. :-)

But people who love the Model M buckling spring keyboard really love
them.  I have typed on them and they do have good tactile feedback.
Clack, clack, clack.  They even make a version with a TrackPoint-like
pointing stick now too.

I also really like the smaller footprint of a keyboard without the
right side number pad.  That allows the mouse to be closer and less of
a reach for when I can't do something with a keyboard shortcut and am
forced to reach for the mouse.

A Model M like spring keyboard with a trackpoint pointing stick and no
right side keypad would be a hard thing for me to pass up.  I have
almost bought the standalone ThinkPad keyboard a few times but the $230+
price is too much for me.

  http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint/dp/B002ONCC6G/

Bob

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> Tim Johnson wrote:
>> > Tim Johnson wrote:
>> > >   Someday, I'd like to spend even more money and get a mechanical
>> > >   keyboard even better than HHL2. Recommedations are welcome.
>> > 
>> > In the 1990s I bought a stock of the IBM M5 keyboards for $5 apiece. You
>> > might look into them. 
>>
>>   They are on my radar screen. Thanks 
>
> The classic IBM Model M keyboard is still available new today and in a
> USB version.  Unicomp manufactured the original keyboards for IBM and
> now sell them direct.
>
>   http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/UKBD/UNI0P4A
>
> Note however that I do NOT own one of these myself.  So this is simply
> a pointer and not a recommendation since I am not using a Model M
> myself.  I am looking for a quieter keyboard not a louder one and
> people complain my current keyboard is already too loud. :-)
>
> But people who love the Model M buckling spring keyboard really love
> them.  I have typed on them and they do have good tactile feedback.
> Clack, clack, clack.  They even make a version with a TrackPoint-like
> pointing stick now too.

I am leaping in for no other reason than that I just received my
DasKeyboard with Cherry brown switches, and this is the first email I'm
typing on it. I opted for the extra pretentious model (no key labels),
but unfortunately you can't get extra-pretentious *and* not have a
numerical keypad, which I regret. So there's the keypad, because
pretension is non-negotiable. The browns are supposed to be quieter than
the blues, in which case I don't want to hear the blues, because this is
not a quiet keyboard.

No further data to supply, sorry. I just got excited.

Eric

> I also really like the smaller footprint of a keyboard without the
> right side number pad.  That allows the mouse to be closer and less of
> a reach for when I can't do something with a keyboard shortcut and am
> forced to reach for the mouse.
>
> A Model M like spring keyboard with a trackpoint pointing stick and no
> right side keypad would be a hard thing for me to pass up.  I have
> almost bought the standalone ThinkPad keyboard a few times but the $230+
> price is too much for me.
>
>   http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint/dp/B002ONCC6G/
>
> Bob

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Joe Fineman]

Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> writes:

>   Someday, I'd like to spend even more money and get a mechanical
>   keyboard even better than HHL2. Recommedations are welcome.

I have used a Kinesis for many years.  They are absurdly expensive, but
it's only money.  Of particular relevance to Emacs is that both Ctrl and
Alt are handy to both thumbs, and the thumbs are used for 10 other
frequently used keys.  Also, the functions of keys can be interchanged
easily by programming the keyboard.

The designers have shown some slight recognition of the difference in
the length of fingers by moving the pinky column down a bit.  But I have
wondered for a long time why there are no keyboards that allow users to
place each key arbitrarily (with magnets or cement, say) to accommodate
their hands -- human hands being notoriously different in relative
length.  I would pay $1000 for such a keyboard.
-- 
---  Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||:  Yanks think 200 years is a long time, and Brits think 200  :||
||:  miles is a long way.                                       :||

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Rusi]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 10:17:48 AM UTC+5:30, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Tim Johnson wrote:
> > I've done extensive keybinding based on the recommendations here:
> > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html
> 
> Those are the rules for people producing code for other people to
> use.  These are packages and modes distributed with emacs and as 3rd
> party resources to emacs.  If you wrote a new mode and wanted to
> distribute the sources for other people to use then you should follow
> those rules so that other people will be able to interact with them.
> 
> > I'm aware that major or minor modes may use C-l or C-o, but I don't
> > have any of the thumb pain when I use either C-l or C-o.
> 
> If you are making your own keybindings for your own use then you are
> free to do anything you wish.  Including violate those rules for your
> own purposes.  Those key binding conventions don't apply to the end
> user.  I say do whatever you feel is best for you.  Pain does not grow
> character.  Pain is painful.

OT for emacs but hopefully not for your situation
https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arora/RSI.html

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Robert Thorpe]

Rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> OT for emacs but hopefully not for your situation
> https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arora/RSI.html

Also, this is what RMS wrote about his RSI once:

"My problem was not carpal tunnel syndrome: I avoid that by keeping my
wrists pretty straight as I type. There are several kinds of hand pain
that can be caused by repetitive stress; don't assume you have the one
you heard of."

I've read that in other places, it's worth finding out exactly what you
have.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Tim Johnson]

* Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> [150607 12:43]:
> Rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > OT for emacs but hopefully not for your situation
> > https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arora/RSI.html
> 
> Also, this is what RMS wrote about his RSI once:
> 
> "My problem was not carpal tunnel syndrome: I avoid that by keeping my
> wrists pretty straight as I type. There are several kinds of hand pain
> that can be caused by repetitive stress; don't assume you have the one
> you heard of."
> 
> I've read that in other places, it's worth finding out exactly what you
> have.
  OK. I will out myself.

  I have a history of doing other things than computer programming.
  I have worked as a park ranger and surveyor. I used to be able to
  drop medium - size trees with a machete. (Chainsaws are much
  heavier than machetes and it is matter of priorities if you are
  carrying lots of other gear and don't expect to have to drop a lot
  of trees). I could chop for long periods of time, switch hands and
  my usage of the machete put a lot of the impact at the base of my
  thumbs. 

  So, as a senior, I now have arthritis at the base of my thumbs.

  Don't do as I did.
  cheers
-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com

Re: Control-C conundrum

[Stefan Monnier]

> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html

Those conventions are there to defend users.  Users are free to do what
they want.  Of course, if they rebind keys which aren't protected by the
convention, then they're at the mercy of conflicts with packages, but
that's not necessarily a problem  (and even if they use keys which are
protected by the convention, they can still get bitten by a non-abiding
package).


        Stefan