From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Skip Montanaro Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 06:19:28 -0600 Message-ID: References: <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692@mail.yahoo.com> <83tuqnkzff.fsf@gnu.org> <87czxap89f.fsf@zoho.eu> <87eehp4wae.fsf@mbork.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35577"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Help GNU Emacs , Emanuel Berg To: Marcin Borkowski Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 09 13:19:47 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l9Rzf-0009BB-Ci for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 13:19:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41720 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9Rze-00013F-Ea for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:19:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49334) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9Rys-000138-2P for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:18:58 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb31.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b31]:38372) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9Ryg-0006t2-34 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:18:57 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb31.google.com with SMTP id 133so5268379ybd.5 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 04:18:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=z93TAffim1CL6qyj0oP1sUNWG4LXm6SysnzddG4iV6Q=; b=YIPm/gt96DxTmvGsFGvKgC4tMWAUZL3GzuoxBtNo+VL8yMZzUuZuXkM0KIj1awzNDO lJPoHpWJkTUITPvvarRk6vRde0DUDorBHoE9xcpGdKDYnWmvJxPUnNvhLmgWD7GjVQ7w aAQ2vr9XwrhryO1+cK2Yvap9jD9/3Zun/ec90fVMQFRa0rctMkh71/Y+VWf50s7o6Y4R ByQMgGpWZPs0Wbt3PWVRvngluPSih1uriB0FUP8Tj9uax3Lqb+wQ5hI4GmXmykX44FaG aRaVtyFCNmmGD4ZAMYa9s8/18mE0PfO+7fctsqANYY3mh/s3UXFwj9/Ie6VBQAbEAGiU 20cA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=z93TAffim1CL6qyj0oP1sUNWG4LXm6SysnzddG4iV6Q=; b=Zum2Hr6dW69t4Qp035y8MOV5kyFGWuuVOF2+sM72F0qHXKaoiTONfnJYMzkoO8U9Hc tKPa8bFV2Pz3Ozq4USn83eJsoEtJ+7Rco3jetdupwXlx246NQ4uRsagmveeniAsLMw0u UV96S3qijTntnLCS1V2GkwUYUmKo7sZmcJctm9ixvpwJ61OGpURHwEPMxeNWYk3RsNJ1 /xttxF6DI5fKGbOpbfvHR5t96pAlcgWUhlGFsQw+iBqZhwcXyyqpD9tbzkaLRMKRy+oF 3SBQnLa3aKxFtWZEbACKyerd7mlOuAGNRzgGoQM/0qalf18MliNDfLN3FuEGgJsfO2La N+0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532k2I8NWmcWDN9NOHu+KgGzj5nYRXlnZqsI+HDVB6TiUBoh5nrj WWM64jPYZmmqtNpir2po8KWcx70xHIJk/KFDge3YcCA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbapPZZeup67ZLaWpzhS6RAEy6Nt1n3BJMJx4HXzBDhufpabX8mvzLg5XtKjk+6QaXkLR3vspRZEBBh28H90I= X-Received: by 2002:a25:a288:: with SMTP id c8mr31593900ybi.516.1612873124835; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 04:18:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87eehp4wae.fsf@mbork.pl> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b31; envelope-from=skip.montanaro@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb31.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127690 Archived-At: > > It *is* dangerous. Typing my `C-z whatever' keybinding ... That, I believe, is on you. If you want to personalize your Emacs environment, that's fine, but C-z is a perfectly fine keybinding as-is. I agree it is low-use, but when you need it, you need it. I assume if you encounter it in some context where it's a surprise, you are either typing into someone else's Emacs instance (see below) or you ran Emacs with "-q". If the latter, don't do that except in the rare cases where you are debugging ELisp problems. If the former, get the other person to type. If you are using Emacs in a context where you normally don't have your personal setup available (say, as root on a machine for which you don't have a login), be careful or use vi. If you do have a login, use "-u". (I don't know how Emacs works on Windows. My only experience is with Unix, Linux and MacOS, all of which support using Emacs from a terminal window, where C-z is an absolute requirement.) C-z has been there in every version of Emacs I have ever used (Gosling Emacs, GNU Emacs, XEmacs, jed, microemacs, ...). In fact, while poking around for a microemacs package on my laptop, I just encountered another Emacs-like editor for the first time, mg, and installed it on my Raspberry Pi. Yup, C-z works there as well. C-z is about as fundamental a keybinding as C-a, C-e, C-f and C-b. If you run "emacs -nw" how do you pause it to get back to your shell prompt? In fact, C-z works in vi (and less and tar and rsync and ssh (sort of) ...) as well. There is a very good reason C-z is bound to suspend-frame. This thread reminded me of a situation I encountered way BITD when I was working at GE R&D. We were early adopters of Sun's new fangled workstations. One group got the ball rolling with Sun-1s (we went to see it, but Sun hadn't even installed the operating system yet - still, it was awesome), but most of us began our Unix love affair with the Sun-2 series. (Before that we were VMS users and most of us software types either used Gosling Emacs or DEC's screen-oriented editor whose name I've long ago forgotten.) This incident probably occurred in the Sun-2/Sun-3 era (so, according to Wikipedia, well before 1990). For some reason, a couple of us needed to help out another guy we didn't know. (Maybe he was new and we were helping him with site-specific configuration? I no longer recall.) We needed to do something with Emacs. He was also an Emacs user, but had so thoroughly remapped his keybindings that his Emacs instance was completely unusable by anybody but him. I don't think he had remapped from QWERTY to Dvorak, but essentially everything not bound to self-insert-command was different. I don't know why "emacs -q" didn't come to mind. Maybe it was an already running session? In any case, we had to dictate to him what to do, because we were unable to use his editor. Skip