From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Skip Montanaro Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 09:59:02 -0600 Message-ID: References: <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692@mail.yahoo.com> <87r1lqyiyk.fsf@yandex.com> <87czx94w3b.fsf@mbork.pl> <555c4ea0-dc93-0c84-b25e-395020809941@yandex.ru> <8ed9b4350244e6ebf6f6@heytings.org> <36a33101-64fd-a880-f47e-393d1318517d@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="373"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Gregory Heytings , Help GNU Emacs To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 09 16:58:47 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l9VPb-000AYv-Pp for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 16:58:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54782 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9VPa-0002Sm-S6 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 10:58:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9VPC-0002SP-Aq for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 10:58:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]:41843) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9VPA-0008Pi-AA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 10:58:22 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id e132so18634488ybh.8 for ; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:58:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bQ3RswEcK7mGVkq5njKA9sLbRzKrPHlzr4c8/7X4rLE=; b=SPmGesOXv19K15DebzKZedMLFhyFjnuCOF9r/aV7NjsR3HHSGdXtipaDKUunF1f5i6 h5Q0aldzIyYnuAnh9+THMuZbMxgOGZJVqwn1EVCDjoHCbSGLybfeVUbUd3UdBW3xIQWZ zjDBaMOjragR/Z9Osn3uScSZJow3GwZfCkG0RDXuu5oNtW4DuInSHw/yxTzzg836zvSq Y981QbEvGWlNxlKqoZpRFMy66VCJ4dxgya9B0T0ykhl67hT8nZMW4x+OCrlkgoNCWtoF ZY60MlcImIYVlu/cg+PJx2cidsmzk/PU1MBcsigxuKOtStYeepCAeFCAN9zDRWaEFeix zHQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bQ3RswEcK7mGVkq5njKA9sLbRzKrPHlzr4c8/7X4rLE=; b=d51zT6BR0ZpUcor8hnWql/LRCaDaHUMOdu+5HvCwmjAqIGaNaKWR6N9TAq/5GvsW5Y E4/5/bMR+TpXm8cE6sR0epGfDLPme92Du+A7ryG2PkOa2vJ6QA/IOzfL2ZgaxJi3Dz/4 CFPvriVQv9YwyFVDzKrjtJ1Uhv71tgdrU4zzlcrYc7yH1gHpVV6sfgZALe+mwgxKbCFK 4oMCw3u1aLwU/6mN2zYlm2Xl0S8bZjcHSZRkM6JFGznZmIUlgXqERUB4r7/cT49FGZpw 7wxnthFAp45q9LfjPt8e7+Ii6Qvb1gOidaNGq4vCeaLJNp9K1zEb+GiQX2peWg4XA1Ic Uwhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TdBkbp47kx4MMbhEyjsOnH1aQjcszjpkyBuGLrPj27ExTByJf o7byTeiHCXEinvtnUNxuCqATgwMuI2tEPr9P5r0FEe8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJws+Cs3ZyyJxL8FWDE42nd+4sGmdFFhST3mOmXRjzB23VFloPrfJ5H/MA4bbhjuBljvfk7fvC5Gx2rznxiLnnY= X-Received: by 2002:a25:ba13:: with SMTP id t19mr33980040ybg.129.1612886298967; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:58:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <36a33101-64fd-a880-f47e-393d1318517d@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e; envelope-from=skip.montanaro@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127701 Archived-At: On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 6:56 AM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 09.02.2021 14:41, Gregory Heytings wrote: > > Users who are trying Emacs for the first time have a direct access to > > "Undo": it's in the tool bar, labeled "Undo". If you put the mouse > > there, it says "Undo last edits (C-x u)". > > That still requires extra research on the part of the user. As well as > subsequent adaptation. > (Apologies, a bit of a rant. I will shut up after this.) New users are going to be comfortable with the menu bar concept, especially the first two menus, File and Edit. They will want to undo something, go to the Edit menu and select "Undo." They might well wonder what C-x u is, but they will be able to undo without much drama. Maybe someday they will get curious enough to poke Help in the menu bar and notice the "Emacs Tutorial" entry. I get there is a mismatch between the way Emacs operates and how largely GUI systems like Windows and MacOS operate. Emacs is waaay older than either of those systems, so it's reasonable that there not be a perfect match. For a long while after Emacs began to grow GUI capabilities, I actively disabled the menu bar. I leave it up now, but still don't use it much. There are a bazillion other GUI-based editors and IDEs out there for people who don't like the way Emacs operates or prefer the familiarity of largely GUI-based systems. Some of them even have "Emacs key bindings." If people want to harness Emacs's strengths, they should realize that it differs a significant amount from current GUI system design and be willing to work a bit to understand how to use it efficiently. I wish there was an Emacs Biography entry in the Help menu. Maybe it's buried in there somewhere or as a section in the Emacs documentation. Maybe a link to Wikipedia named Emacs History would be sufficient. Not being a graphic artist, I never had a need to use Photoshop. I simply don't understand its model of image editing. The most image editing I ever did was with simple tools like early versions of MacPaint. While I have no proof, I suspect a semi-competent Photoshop user could pick up the basics of GIMP pretty quickly. Every once in a while I think, "I'll just fire up GIMP for this one little thing." I stumble around for a while, accomplish nothing and eventually run screaming out of the room. I then go back to kolourpaint. It's not a big deal. If it was really that important I would spend the time to figure out GIMP, read a book or find a tutorial. I don't bitch that GIMP doesn't work like kolourpaint. I think Emacs is similar in that respect. It has a ton of power. Users have to realize that and be willing to spend some time learning. If all people want to do is enter some text, they can run Notepad. Skip