From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Le Wang Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Poll about proposed change in DEL (aka Backspace) and Delete Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 20:54:40 +0800 Message-ID: References: <87litcvtu2.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1317473694 10300 80.91.229.12 (1 Oct 2011 12:54:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 12:54:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-delete-poll@gnu.org To: Joel James Adamson Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 01 14:54:50 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R9z5d-0007cP-UY for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Oct 2011 14:54:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44983 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R9z5d-0007xl-4o for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:54:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57514) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R9z5X-0007xZ-BK for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:54:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R9z5W-0002n0-IH for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:54:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:41542) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R9z5V-0002mY-2a; Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:54:41 -0400 Original-Received: by qadb17 with SMTP id b17so1060234qad.0 for ; Sat, 01 Oct 2011 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BRcV2+7++5Sh0B573eXaPKl5wugiFrt765G6bQijGQ4=; b=PYRwBcc3SdtQSTZVI4Z1vyjPoB8A1ZbIQVlhu7KlYbrsvvXoJVNbcUCtu1WmsUUx4o jOP61v1Eoeez/pZKTVgFPZoh4kfP7bnDgYrl+DSvELCSPNtmrhLTpmK/orSQxoTIAbzb ibJZyTnNrOLZy/vLCL5YXTV+KQbkt7KZ95NS8= Original-Received: by 10.224.174.70 with SMTP id s6mr10348918qaz.107.1317473680375; Sat, 01 Oct 2011 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.224.45.82 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Oct 2011 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.41 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:82394 Archived-At: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Joel James Adamson wrote: > I feel that maintaining the editor-unique nature of the Emacs delete > key, rather than adopting the behavior of word processors is crucial to > maintaining the uniqueness of Emacs. =A0It's one of the reasons I use > Emacs: the Emacs way makes sense in a way that I strongly prefer. =A0I > never liked the behavior of deleting whole selected regions and I prefer > the Emacs way. I don't want to turn this into a huge debate, so this will be my last reply to this that cc's the list. It's not editor-unique vs word-processor. It's editor-unique vs (web browser + email editor + word processor + EVERYTHING). I feel it's far more reasonable to change Emacs to be less surprising to new users than it is to keep it same-old same-old for the users who are already used to it. After all, if the traditional Emacs behavior is preferable to you, you can easily restore it. It's harder for a brand new user to make Emacs less shocking. To use myself as an example, I started using Emacs because I REALLY didn't like vi for some school projects. I was fortunate that I gave Emacs enough of a chance to find CUA-mode, delete-selection-mode, and a few other bits at a time when they weren't a part of the Emacs distribution. These conveniences made Emacs tolerable to me, and gave me a glimpse of the Emacs' power. Slowly, I grew away from those packages and now, I pretty much do everything the "Emacs way". Now, specifically talking about the DEL change proposed, if I want to copy something into the clipboard and replace a new selection with it, currently I would 1. select stuff 2. M-w 3. select stuff to delete 4. C-w 5. C-y 6. M-y This requires the new user to be aware of C-y and M-y and how to use each to do a very basic task. While pressing DEL to delete a selected region is much more intuitive. I'm so happy that Emacs is already evolving to be more newbie friendly. Transient-mark is on by default. Shift-select is on by default. All these little things help. The "Emacs way" to do very basic tasks should not shock newbies so much that they give up in disgust before they have a chance to experience the real crown jewel of Emacs, Emacs-lisp. --=20 Le