From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: on adding a function call to a s-exp Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 16:31:43 +0100 Message-ID: References: <864libzkem.fsf@gmail.com> <86zi026stt.fsf@gmail.com> <86wov55r33.fsf@gmail.com> <87o9ggdolh.fsf@telefonica.net> <53126606-4d8c-46d3-aa9f-f27879885b02@default> <87k1r33r0q.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1528903853 4799 195.159.176.226 (13 Jun 2018 15:30:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:30:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List" To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 13 17:30:49 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fT7jU-0001Ax-Hb for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 17:30:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35187 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fT7lb-0003QI-FS for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 11:32:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36610) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fT7km-0003Ej-59 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 11:32:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fT7kk-0002ma-Ho for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 11:32:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-it0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e]:39734) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fT7kk-0002ke-9Z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 11:32:06 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-it0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id p185-v6so4434664itp.4 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:32:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WclHPw8j6T+6XfLccE9Fqc2AO2VesDXN189HhnJSaFo=; b=Nms+9H1KFx0YxZPyjuGVvbHhI9rdPKONG2nAZAtuPQBbewva5NYvujNSkmFiy18Elv w9l7qReWtePfvjqLEEG80MZ+EyYqzPQ/kTq3HbOT7CugYaAOeVUizCKtfrVxlAvSgaQ0 QYEZ+XsNzoBBOVBFTF0QpW/crSkGN7dis4bEYkfv/67OpPdw2TriO8CZUMdup6fhT3ja H482zQfdmrbfzBrgI8FVGJdiTy+7h374yfDZMgnMcQRvCGUg1zqnPPgA4gpShi29xNSA X6eZuiqRdrNXSnhwVwYFWy99c6QCnlPNNdHeij/ra6YJodl+ukaH6Ctsmv/AMcIKjDi6 4TLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WclHPw8j6T+6XfLccE9Fqc2AO2VesDXN189HhnJSaFo=; b=RocLu2h3K+SMh0y8nRNyVy/0kJ8qmgbl2EX0X1OhH9792M1PiBDvO1ebhF7xdRjJTm BJaiwNDGOKzMn3CUt8cIA6Wyeu4txuKp7WoNHXNu/sba9yxzisrmR0tmKI4PG3eujFLM ULvCW9fFv8Wjb+99kG1mlbGZx3bLFczjHoM3nV5okgGyHNjFi9cjsbmQB8A0nKIDUhIY XiXi4I7k0QVqACfk9ogHy8ct4w62/wSHsCXBl+b3WjXjcpF9HSguqY2JDBZ9cbqucCSk p+P7MJObLbU8St0BNNogYOQxdpCepqwwDd6ouSZyzupKwVsiEIeAddjTzy92bEn1fX3b VgSg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1bFcgFl/gYtGcfMHLVFdTr6XxChWx2XdvDk37ZaTw5DhQaa/CU wrlIEV2M58/YRqM1puN0WEQsPNR8/hlR9UPG4mI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKIXKK+xmnoU8hIzDcHuRrz/oZWbQSLvKaXdzXQDIImBLj0VEo82UjihQsmT06MBA9T924eLErglH7CsR2PELi8= X-Received: by 2002:a24:fd85:: with SMTP id m127-v6mr5140387ith.104.1528903925351; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 2002:a4f:2246:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:31:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:117129 Archived-At: Sorry Drew, this was a very long-winded way to not an answer a simple question. I understand you just don't like Emacs guessing your intentions. That's just fine. I asked you for the sake of improving e-p-m *for other users* if you could provide an example where it didn't correctly guess your intentions. Something like "Oh I wanted to put a x-and-y here and your naughty package put it there instead". That was all I asked. What's more, the reason I ask this is because I completely agree with you on your DWIM/sweep-up-the-droppings stance. Jo=C3=A3o On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 3:39 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > > > FWIW (he ducks), I work with a Lispy language, Elisp ;-). And I > > > don't use any "structured-editing" feature (crutch / ball-&-chain) > > > such as `paredit' or `electric-pair-mode'. I'm non-electric all > > > the way. > > > > > > To me, having an editor automatically insert a closing delimiter > > > each time I type an opening delimiter is a bother, not an aid. > > > > For the sake of improving electric-pair-mode, can you explain exactly > > when/under what conditions it is a bother? > > A bother _to me_. People are different. People use Emacs > differently. > > To me, it's a bother to care about the inserted closing > delimiters and where they might currently be - they just > get in my way. > > I think that if you go the route of using such > delimiter-balancing "aids" you need to do it whole-hog. > The ability to have things automatically closed for you > _necessitates_ slurping, barfing, etc. > > What you see as convenience, I see as workaround hacks, > needed only because you've turned on automatically closing > delimiters. > > If things are pre-closed then, yes, of course you need > commands to pull stuff inside the closings and push stuff > outside the closings. You want to add a list element? > OK, now you have to insert it before the proper closing > paren. > > I don't want Emacs to assume where/when I want to close > a list, vector, string, etc. I'll close it where/when > I want. > > With Emacs it's _trivial_ to see which closing delimiter > corresponds to which opening delimiter. If this were > not easy to see then, sure, maybe there would be a stronger > case for automatically inserting closing delimiters. > > In Emacs it's almost impossible to accidentally leave > something unclosed or to close something in the wrong > place. Automatic closing? YAGNI. > > > I'm asking because that's precisely what electric-pair-mode attempts: I= t > > *doesn't* insert a closing delimiter "each time", only when it guesses > > that it will not bother you. If it is mis-guessing some situation I > > would very much like to know about it. > > FWIW: DWIM too often really means _not_ "Do what I mean" > but "Do what some programmer thought would be cool to > guess I might mean." > > I don't want Mr. Electric trying to second-guess where/when > I want to close something. I don't need that kind of "help". > > It's easier for me to know whether a paren is escaped or > inside a string or whatever than it is for some "smart" > code. I know my intentions. DWIM code can only guess > my intentions. And when it guesses wrong I need to go > behind it an sweep up the droppings. > > But as I say, everyone's different. It's _good_, not bad, > that such electric-delimiter modes exist. I don't argue > against them. With Emacs, anyone can get what s?he wants. > --=20 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora