From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Kaushal Modi Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: use-package Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:42:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <874magv15u.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <87d1p38ll6.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <87y47pg5da.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87shxwzkzg.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87d1outgo2.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462967112 8590 80.91.229.3 (11 May 2016 11:45:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:45:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier To: Phillip Lord Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 11 13:45:11 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1b0SZh-0004ZT-44 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 11 May 2016 13:45:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51777 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b0SZg-0008PE-H4 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 11 May 2016 07:45:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34630) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b0SXP-0004GK-AU for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2016 07:42:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b0SXN-0001ax-PE for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2016 07:42:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi0-x231.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c06::231]:36079) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b0SXN-0001aq-Jp for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2016 07:42:45 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x201so62600835oif.3 for ; Wed, 11 May 2016 04:42:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R0jM6CHxh6kdSek5EYMzJ3TXjH1nNubg7DdIiJMNhYo=; b=a8+RiVmaCaCLHlc62Y6UfzaYscNm5ps2YqLVoPGOGfEJRLUPuZoaf88N39WBtUTKkq 2tJZumzBiGPu0O/fd5fJrOLmLlwP1ITjYJm6pZ0fyuJ8N6S6k3Vven/sed3d22x8dhNJ UTS8J2lgmsGkavd6MCvNG/EczNQ/oPf1tPF4Kwc4xoNbp1+UJFIBQVmYuSVtTZ9m9Tf4 hCFIiUB/HpRWtuCSAlYH8JdY1nFkdYy5Gv4JgSvtSsxJsupqgSq21mlyd4WgpnTG4xGd vk1A5OYxKBdqYwayvCydd0wlwUah3H7XdyWCQIPNGw7ksYywM0iMllj41fHL4lBNxecl nTBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R0jM6CHxh6kdSek5EYMzJ3TXjH1nNubg7DdIiJMNhYo=; b=mP9sWuLpQ/sUhHJYA8ZZOg3i1MjmzmmDXgpIXKChbL3PC05F55LPt0BfJ0I16w8Hzi 69jBiPPx/a0APzBMbg3OXIj2MX6S12T4Unz/SipDNsNO2UoCAXJDhvdan3wfkxVrGDQL ddot+Fx5caqxnaa4lAAJsuylgCPQ+tD5CeHdf2P8EWJLgc0gS1d42BxS2zUHrUd9blhC fk0J1fbHWlsn4DYtK/l2G/sBWTjYSvvUPkc2rne8V6WKWNBMOjW58284cFwJmKM+8VOo gaCHagodo2zMT16qThFZgju7s6HUaAUqJNWKOmRFX34jpbgcL386RWamSFk4YbuylSGV EMqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUHPjhapMPT/PfdOEPGxw+0K9BoKTIqSO/lBj3zQPZnk/atrlv5LmAKm3tOqfAlwnxVLeiEgMwASpwHLA== X-Received: by 10.157.52.162 with SMTP id g31mr1695346otc.165.1462966964852; Wed, 11 May 2016 04:42:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87d1outgo2.fsf@russet.org.uk> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::231 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:109930 Archived-At: On Wed, May 11, 2016, 6:59 AM Phillip Lord > The question is, though, which is the most sensible default. > > Which kind of illustrates my point, I think. Most of your work is > switching things off! > > I think we can do a better job of the defaults, by simply moving to "no > lighter by default". > I would still say that the default would be to keep the lighters on. It is useful especially when people have installed some minor mode and have enabled that globally or locally without understanding the full implications. Then by simply glancing at the minor mode lighter list, they can get a hint as to what's different in the environment between when things are behaving as they expect vs the things they do not. Also you saw just the list of minor mode lighters that I like to hide. It's very possible that someone else likes to hide the lighters I choose to show and show some of those that I am hiding. Overall when you overlay the choice of all emacs users (do an OR condition of everyone's choices), I would not be surprised if that result leaned towards showing almost all the lighters. We cannot set the defaults based on the preferences of just you and me. I think that it is more important to have those to help people debug stuff and avoid frustration. The list of minor mode lighters that I hide has grown over time. For few I was often confused on which ones I want to be shown vs which I do not. Also as my experience with elisp grew, I relied less on the lighters and more on C-h v minor-mode-name. But that does not justify turning the lighters off for everyone by default, even for people who may be just started using emacs. If the lighters are on, then they would at least know what question to ask.. Like "Hey, things are funny only when I have XYZ in the thing at the bottom". Here's the initial thinking: 1. Leave the defaults as they are now. 2. Add a customizable option to hide all lighters. 3. Allow user to customize a white list or black list of minor modes. So you might choose to show all lighters except a few in black list. Or you might choose to hide all except a few in white list. Thinking of that, may be rich-minority should be integrated into the core. But then, why do that when it is already included in GNU Elpa. We are anyways trying to keep only the very essential code in the core and put the useful, nice to have feature packages in Elpa. It's pretty straight forward to install that package today and configure as you need. So the final proposal would be to not hide the lighter by default and use the available packages like rich-minority to set user-specific lighters. > -- -- Kaushal Modi