From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Ochs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Workshop to save M$ Windows users - help needed Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 04:59:57 -0300 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40543"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: help-gnu-emacs , Jean Louis Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 03 10:08:35 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWwXz-000ALU-8Z for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 10:08:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53008 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWwXx-0001Nu-Nl for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 04:08:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38094) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWwPx-0001GP-6x for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 04:00:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x532.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::532]:45722) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWwPt-0006YH-Ar for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 04:00:15 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id q201so973843pgq.12 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=YHeLyU+KidqRCG9KDEsW0El1JtnyhqAQVD2uYIiMP30=; b=Ta1RS8sSyuvfVi8+IrjTV1xI2ocS8epvpKzTAJk3fwFCcJutC+E8pCLNMRptwZugnw TeAmFm3hEdVup8LBA4Fse3t8mTfZStmt8ofd40YBgGUlLZRlL7tEAx0HTGwmF+2MIRwv 0Dbna4Qj8hmu/VP2pGvRFxOjCFUHTN06sVEYENY93RUQ5XsERNiBvcR2OyCumw9dQ2/K pMb9Kyvb71JJwd7QeAkdaie049qTqyQ67dEG8k3XtTmS5IJ1YN7VGl7CBnD80pMFClgu jC43SICsiNiNUXOjeIEXC+g2kCXkQknGrhipxwvQLa3T0ZIrpfVWNl8ytk0e/pKlAWiA jtQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=YHeLyU+KidqRCG9KDEsW0El1JtnyhqAQVD2uYIiMP30=; b=l4yC4gMDC6Jg0SC2GP0GcDaEVJNRftUFmtaJTsUyJG9M77ehcOVbGBFJhSG4a/W0wk eEmx6wcMpyejfTamYRx3KuxJmY7EEX7IjL3yIBNS47n59x/o8bWi/4gcK/v5FVN4hc9Q 8w6FqqnEFR+1vq0RtGZ18JJv+Fb3MrAbmQmifBzp0HLoJHwddIELfTeelTRykZsly8r6 SyF1/UzfMNjD0A+wdgqC/TUNn7xa9juQo4nHEjwtdOqeDrFwQ1QOKvqvvXml7zRc/rPp +iDD2q8xa8c52hs7OJBLhRa9aEdDDGUljckrTVJdNTrpK48tn4wMmzE/k0YNLLmO/jay fRBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ZzFJ0EGd+SDXKp2SZAZp/Py22gqakNr7Vp7LOwWA+BhXAzkm1 5MYvNoi8lskmEnl2Mj6pAj0LLN4iwgPtTRAMFJw8YzLjplk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxzv1y0GcBbl+I/QcCr+A/SVdZIbtX0UtxyqoX0036ZpTt0Rw6UgZGdQQIFYj6HAZjC5z8UEtjUs5CdVgNDo/w= X-Received: by 2002:a63:1e60:: with SMTP id p32mr5769271pgm.234.1633248008678; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 01:00:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::532; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x532.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:133513 Archived-At: On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 at 02:48, Jean Louis wrote: > > (...) Hi Jean-Louis, my experience is that people here don't mind spending weeks or months trying to learn how to use some program _IF_ "everybody" - for some value of "everybody" - keeps repeating that that program is incredibly important and useful, and that is it "easy" and that "there are lots of tutorials about it on the internet"... The text that I wrote explaining my workshop is hard to translate to English, so let me just retell in English what some parts of it say. I start the text by describing a situation that practically everybody has been through: we see that one of our friends has included some amazing graphics in one of his assignments, and we ask how we can learn how to do graphics like that ourselves. He answers something like: "I used Python and MatPlotLib! They are super easy to learn! There are lots of tutorials on the internet!" - and then we spend the next weekend at home trying to learn Python and MatPlotLib from the tutorials that we found on the internet, but we progress very little. We ask more people for more hints and help, and the answers are always in that same form: "use the programs/libraries such and such", "it's easy", "there are tutorials on the internet"... Then I explain that there are parts of the Free Software World in which people have other ways to help one another, and in which if you ask "how do I do such and such?" very often people will answer with snippets that do something closely related to what you want, and they will say "does this help?" - and by reading and understanding those snippets you will learn a lot, and very often you will be able to modify them to get code that does what you want. My main intention with that workshop will be to introduce people to that world - in which people share short programs instead of just sharing names of programs and libraries and saying "it's easy". I also explained in the text that usually we go to workshops expecting to learn something "useful", but we don't notice that we have a certain rigid notion of "usefulness" that we never thought much about it. Probably what is going to happen in this workshop is that people will start to understand other notions of "usefulness", and for programmers often something is "useful" when it is a building block can be used in many ways. And my criteria for choosing what to present on this workshop will be not "usefulness" but "elegance" and "fun" - I will present some things that are easy to understand but that have deep ideas inside, and that _some_ of my programmer friends consider that are "elegant" and "fun". You said: - if you advertise channel or anything through Telegram it is vendor lock network, promoting the network, not your own service or organization. If anything happens to Telegram, you will lose connections. It is centralized system. The plan is to use Telegram - that many of the students already know how to use - to start, and then switch to rcirc... suppose that this means that we will use Telegram for 1h30, and then abandon it. Does that really look very bad to you? You said: Ask yourself "why"? Do they really need a terminal or Bash? I don't think so. If you teach Emacs, use TUTORIAL as your starting point, but even more fundamental is knowing how to use keys on the keyboard. Majority of people will get stuck with proper usage of special keys. 1. Talk about proper usage of keyboard and special keys; 2. Going through Emacs Tutorial; 3. Use Emacs Lisp introduction and go through it; "Emacs" and "Unix" have several meanings - to me -, and I am interested in the meaning in which they are "anti-black-boxes" and are environments that encourage people to help one another by sharing snippets of code. [[]], Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev