From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 03:08:14 +0200 Message-ID: <C549B37A-44C1-445F-8B42-3D9957414034@aol.com> References: <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> <838sv6cmwt.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516202327.5cgy2s4kppy3ahxa@Ergus> <871s0yqg2i.fsf@telefonica.net> <3210C8E9-7A74-47D6-81A0-470948E6D09C@gmail.com> <87r28xq0j1.fsf@telefonica.net> <576240a5-c92a-5cf8-898b-43f214a2b580@yandex.ru> <83imu9beyn.fsf@gnu.org> <jwvzhnl1avh.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <20190611130647.hbbnjbnpufcqcwpi@Ergus> <87r280s0oz.fsf@telefonica.net> Reply-To: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="11792"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org,=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3scar_Fuentes?= <ofv@wanadoo.es> Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 12 03:08:35 2019 Return-path: <help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org> Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org>) id 1harkg-0002wL-Pr for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 03:08:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56070 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from <help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org>) id 1harkf-0002yj-R8 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 21:08:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49116) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from <spacibba@aol.com>) id 1harkW-0002yd-QS for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 21:08:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <spacibba@aol.com>) id 1harkV-000793-K0 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 21:08:24 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic312-27.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.178.98]:37422) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <spacibba@aol.com>) id 1harkU-000787-R2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 21:08:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1560301701; bh=Ph7BxbUbfcCXQffqVSCiR1wYYA0LmvyXLcXgQB74RP8=; h=Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:From:From:Subject; b=hPmQ3L5f3odpLEZZh24LoiH3nVa0yn6HguBlwe+8M/WcJH7iNiLasLs8nJ8P4ZSoou/lfQF0//ax8ayOtprgGTTvSoxbwYeL6e7Ij5COyU7Ft+WjTEOCul6OkKlqKznlUrIImod+8SOg8cx49LD4SXohJeRaaUtr9+95amGfAPtd8fqcWlmP40QbBTdVSBt/4ASyaNHz/LJJB7QBYTd9JbqgOQWuEyGME6+OSXCG1611f8GG5bE/FqsgyA+0+WO9XIMtMXeRoaR9jaqbdLAL0AWxNMBNH/a+EetvBn7HkPRi24rgtcFIIUEyskXvEnsCzTuA1nl7tAIbFbSrFi9UkQ== X-YMail-OSG: 9QrGJoYVM1lkjNnIhaJiNoWOrIKfpdlpnei.3F_RrwW_EhNMMBNQ9Eu0GjfmHOd A_GVI0M46ly4yQP9Q_So6nfIbiljheU48yGKrQgJswZAU34oCmbU8ppNoPi1S1SmOBI1SujdAEL8 IyLEaz1m_il4y89t9gfQ22Nijj7pYbqpNy8g1xYMMonDrDpMxYvmsXdwLsXVtrGTeDhLRJoti8I4 XPXIM6W1IbCUstwHjQ1etp657_7wpilpi_jduFZHgKJYc1R1AtfTq4tJ_z8nvzwpy5RurD1CRvSU j6nh5uiV.OaoNXihFmC4G9xdtnQokZtjXG_gOqKsoMVP0HsGXoddBkMXjZnN0Nm6cN8wPB8clJ04 AS_S5QqySHrVkdtUTQwl5yy2qJLJ4anma7BLMUvTb4TKgJYC2mCP4EfTNGhixQZO2oPocUX9V45U ZNkl55sm0UoaY0o2cTpqHMTVRjCv7DvUPmpjqwQ0E6Cl1OX0I9zSzZ31KHkKzFQiiEntX0oSznPi hJVyAhiV819hl72whJHiQlaQ6AMpM4OKhZhIXN_8DZYL_VcMbsEPp0CMYxhxvZOwTkY4mwqQrMHa LyiONMwCKNQzAtuZE1kfURS9h9cC84THqoAjjOaCRwufdwglbjm.7ssm4xIlZt9wn0xvbvbH2DED nWgI0iGIon.qN_LBTWmPO5C.0Vl8VpqPZhx_jzmI6Aa4PzHeNSrwNpUc3NJ2BC8n8NaD7Myu.x.M r6HDHZvj6OgROZ93z_9EQugqDAKTodzl2xk4AjXnZGFbBo47uv8yubp7A2Wug94Agfr7pV58B0Kq VdqqmxFAsP2WcMQIdOMyUP3zx9OyQ2BnwzjmLxn9k0 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 01:08:21 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO [192.168.1.14]) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp412.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID aa4bf3e3b5214c96affb4ab82a34444a; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 01:08:18 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87r280s0oz.fsf@telefonica.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.178.98 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/help-gnu-emacs>, <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs> List-Post: <mailto:help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs>, <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" <help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120919 Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help/120919> On June 11, 2019 3:37:00 PM GMT+02:00, "=C3=93scar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo= =2Ees> wrote: >Ergus via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu=2Eorg> writes: > >> Hi Stefan: >> >> I agree with you about the prefix=2E After some suggestions in private >> (from this same thread) I have been using the composable package [1] >and >> it works like a charm=2E >> >> I didn't use it before because I didn't know about it (it is in >> melpa)=2E But it really improves the emacs editing experience a lot >> without affecting the default behavior=2E It has the best of modal >editing >> (the consistency) but without the annoying modes=2E >> >> There are some missing details, and things that can be improved, but >I >> see a lot of potential there=2E Probably this package (or a similar >> design/reimplementation) may finish with the arguments about vim's >modal >> editing vs emacs memorize command and inconsistencies=2E Because it >> provides the best of both worlds=2E It is compatible with transient and >> delete-selection modes=2E >> >> The same applies to some commands and functions that will be not >needed >> anymore (or needed to remember) as explained in the project's Readme=2E >> >> [1] https://github=2Ecom/paldepind/composable=2Eel > >That indeed is an interesting package, but keep in mind that what you >consider "annoying modes" on Vi(m) is the Right Thing for other users=2E >Specifically, those modes allow to avoid the Control-Meta Emacs hell=2E > For users that like modes there is evil and similar modes=2E I was just re= ferring to an approach to improve-simplify editing and memory usage keeping= the modeless behavior=2E This is actually my main concern (and complain) about emacs bindings=2E Th= at the inconsistencies forces to abuse of memory (most commands are bind wh= ere there is space and it's needed to read a documentation to know what th= e prefix will do) or make very long commands combinations for simple freque= nt tasks (like copy a whole line or 3 consecutive words) >The demographics of Evil's users consists on Vim emigrees looking for a >more powerful Vim, Emacs users who came to think that Vim's model is >more efficient and/or elegant (some of those could find composable=2Eel >interesting) and Emacs veterans trying to alleviate their RSI-related >maladies=2E I think composable=2Eel works very fine now but it needs some small improv= ements in order to make more people happy and provide a 100% standard exper= ience (Display useful information in the modeline for example)=2E Maybe (I = have a dream) something similar to composable will be included in emacs (li= ke vile or CUA mode)=2E But this really looks to me like a right approach: = it keeps the modeless philosophy, reduces commands to remember and inconsis= tencies, it is a very original solution/improvement to the key bindings lim= itation issues, and reduces some binding combinations to the half while kee= ping the backward compatibility and simplicity=2E