From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Too fine design granularity leads to numerous macro/function/command existed in Emacs. Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 03:46:38 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87czqh3b8u.fsf@zoho.eu> <87eeax6w9t.fsf@zoho.eu> <871r6w7vyi.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19594"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 14 03:47:22 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mEilc-0004u8-TK for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 03:47:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39608 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mEilb-0001Pv-8X for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 21:47:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38686) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mEil2-0001PX-Sw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 21:46:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-db8eur05olkn2041.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.89.41]:29280 helo=EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mEil0-0003RX-O4 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 21:46:44 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ZEJ7C6FtJlkZDC+JKFj8AGb1ih3jAnRH8G02TL3qbW81BwbJjz8r1K0X7yLXaEzZEhbVMEqRsEJrflkc/QsiK9Bc101iYMII179vFivfTNf5Ju2SBVStOVV3m03E0VG6Q4XTsjtXUXyp3RokyhehJXYgm6IbNkKMi3/vpEVPPUa8wq5uQA9GK/9toK18ivO+5qEVjdj6WupSD6V1DnYAjbqb3HHLRyliM3diazBWB1kCPiYTgYzFb1y43jQ9U+e+klT3ru/lrl+FfHDpo4RfMtO5fTW3qoA9kwgHe0ida2wYJ2b5WqRjF0q+G20BLbZ6ja7qlYYJg4fVj3puRFey5Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=GFcNuNRfIZ5mGF0d1vgvHqIvWRG3qOloMYWakCTd8pY=; b=LLDuF4E0y9br+LY9Nxv9fJAvqVzCZd35KAvGCd3IPT6eWtQAu0v+qc7maXJhBE4qdI75gHYzGkN2HNnfd7zEQRYB/DFfML8gF9SjBKfIuKyWCGLoglXU62/bIhMAYUTyE0pq5ixPMPld48nU09Iczd+RsF9SeS06t4KY/94vmvScUrg7aeziR5lu+vpFxUTKGXR/2u+hNKWn8FyNYmJPI3mxa0SdpitOX/2292DleYZFKCcmEnK5v5bWSPRWdXdAOGsBeEHr/UQpyY9bXvQcEnEriONlTM5DcZpNMyeyMtxtEkdqgpIYrcNa7zKOReAvatJoo7KoafbfGcM95XAl1A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=GFcNuNRfIZ5mGF0d1vgvHqIvWRG3qOloMYWakCTd8pY=; b=g8YGMwlISq1iYxpjg9t2xd7w3VzDIpsZtMbIWkr4L/r+EYiPGdus6VdEGN6mpmVQIIOR5tzenAsh01obd80hnJ3oqPLSVlIo/Ken91vWNJFV94Ha7PeLJcKJkGRjNPWOUyI14Lto46sz8w6QQVHEhU9qvmH96pVUBcAM3tNaoBjhoxHFtZ009NzA52lJxWCRVBdFKUivdHvNCTy7lfPXmA7avxcuDX3iJSnQOyJ6o/U1RS6CuBFoHcfS4nff8IxvYWtBg31jFqs+e1BCkbY8g16Jt3YAfj8SLSNFWsojDre5e07OpnqKKJ7mO3G6SbJBoUrQWUuSXhIBXRCRJH+Ihg== Original-Received: from DB8EUR05FT042.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc0f::41) by DB8EUR05HT027.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc0f::95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4415.16; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 01:46:39 +0000 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc0f::4f) by DB8EUR05FT042.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc0f::328) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4415.14 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 01:46:39 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:563F7276813C62B158F47D629931C5B0AC746424564C48F18753E6E4D380DF31; UpperCasedChecksum:FF27D56DF8CD500EC0687630834DA344D08F8898899C80A40D105C9518DA2AE5; SizeAsReceived:7786; Count:45 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6558:f201:6d1a:3f39]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6558:f201:6d1a:3f39%2]) with mapi id 15.20.4415.021; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 01:46:39 +0000 In-Reply-To: <871r6w7vyi.fsf@zoho.eu> (Emanuel Berg via Users list for the's message of "Sat, 14 Aug 2021 01:42:45 +0200") X-TMN: [fYGRiS1A/3TR03fk6PDdMa7INJ5ffq9I] X-ClientProxiedBy: AS8P250CA0014.EURP250.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:20b:330::19) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87mtpk7q81.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (81.232.177.30) by AS8P250CA0014.EURP250.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:20b:330::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4415.16 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 14 Aug 2021 01:46:38 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 45 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 141196a0-2d1e-41b8-4515-08d95ec55b8d X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB8EUR05HT027: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: hF8IWEY70vAnMl+zt+4sU5wAwzA7zkJmemDeSBkrXa8mK0I0Eow557/zJtQSKOye0VUFRB9gr/bKX8/k7UJZYeDc8KfZXYAbralN6eYc2IHv55BS7gox5O7+mRZ7uaeHz7bMMCBRuJ8/sYis+ukqAPHqCedRYaG3a/h51J8iGgABkbK/SOH1szeAZQO/sakrDt7NOopjXbMOGEvVnOyH+DQ7diqXvKxELyio5YRKkG68MEjQEv48LJZAQ52nBUfQ8PZNL87qYYHtof4B+fnwlJBiKoXA2I3N5TKPMGniRz+dam2Dkp1biQEQrTWjfe4iPIGTAAAndqv7kmUthDIJhGKsXMvr/AN++fL4EIYdsawOnGFLDo1OEigzDs2oQPzrKUR9yZ+WRqFzRgEFZ74VlBdcH0F8m9+C3x1fwfOiZa70qqCeNmiby92f/K5b9Kst X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: ey9qAPqHZ1wwkhYlg18Yiy+xg7F3lKBPWxJa6EIIPaNcx1T9P8WdUKqAMTMFYB2jSuej4KM8ZVK9GvLRne9RMGk3s0Y/M+8piyWOoW1+zD1r/gNpPSKepFPZr9hNaAjr6ajEt7T1zUJdq1EOt9sccg== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 141196a0-2d1e-41b8-4515-08d95ec55b8d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2021 01:46:39.2903 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB8EUR05FT042.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB8EUR05HT027 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.89.41; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:132524 Archived-At: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor writes: > Arthur Miller wrote: > >> You don't believe that programming shell script requires at >> least some programming fluency AND some inside knowledge hot >> the particular tools works, their options, streams etc? >> It just comes out of itself? :) > > This isn't a script really but a shell function and this > function in particular is just a wrapper so no, you don't need > to know much more than the chaining of GNU tools there... > >>> Everyone that writes it can also combine a bunch of shell >>> tools, but everyone who can combine a bunch of shell tools >>> can't write that - many of them can't program at >>> all, actually. >> >> I don't think I or anyone else claimed that "everyone who >> writes it" (it = shellscripts?) > > Putting together a bunch of shell tools with pipes in between > to do some parsing, that's much more easy than to write Elisp. > > Shell tools are on the user level, not on the > programmer/engineer level. > >> By the way, you do realize that we write this in context of >> Emacs and Elisp and not some random unix tooling context? > > Yes but no, what? > >> Yes, unix command line tools and piping are like lego blocks, that >> was by design, it does not mean that *everyone* can write shell >> scripts. Everyone *can learn* to write shell scripts, but not everyone >> can write shellscripts. > > Forget about the shell script, it is just a wrapper, an > interface for convenience. No, what it amounts to is the use > and combination of 3 tools. (BTW I didn't get the other guy's > suggestion to work, that which only used awk and nothing else > - well, that might be better (I agree) but as for how > difficult it is it is probably *more* difficult than mine > because his requires some understanding of awk beyond the > most basic "pile together a bunch of common tool with their > common/very simple and familiar options".) > > So again there is no shell programming, just awk (gawk(1)), > sort(1) and tail(1). > > $ awk '{ print length($0) " " $0; }' $file | sort -n | tail -1 > >> I hope you realize the difference. And that hypothetical >> *everyone* can also learn how to write elisp if they choose >> so. By the way you know what is also like lego blocks? >> Lisp functions :). > > True but that Lego is too difficult for a lot of people while > everyone can pipe together three shell tools. Ehhhh .... good night.