Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

[cc changed to help-gnu-emacs -- this does not belong on emacs-devel]

() Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
() Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:15:08 -0800

   [code]

Here is ‘find-my-marker-GOLD’, munged a bit:

(defun find-my-marker-GOLD ()
  "Starting from anywhere in the file, find my marker GOLD its value
   and location."
  (interactive)
  (save-excursion
    (save-match-data
      ;; Starting from the end of the accessible region, find GOLD.
      (goto-char (point-max))
      ;; a/ This value of this expression is discarded.
      ;;    It turns out to be the same as "location" below,
      ;;    so if you save it, you can avoid a call to ‘point’.
      ;; b/ The optional args default to ‘nil’, and can be dropped.
      (search-backward-regexp "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" nil nil nil)

      ;; In the following, i have deleted the eol comments, which
      ;; obscure more than enlighten (on my small computer screen).

      ;; You might consider using `((k0 . ,v0)
      ;;                            (k1 . ,v1))
      ;; for succinctness (note backquote and comma placement).
      ;; An intermediate solution is to use ‘acons’.
      (list
       (list
        :GOLD-value
        ;; The ‘replace-regexp-in-string’ is not necessary.
        ;; The initial regexp match (above) already sets the match
        ;; data; you can use ‘(match-string 1)’ to retrieve it.
        (string-to-number
         (replace-regexp-in-string "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" "\\1"  (match-string 0))))
       (list
        :GOLD-location
        (point))))))

   [Q] Are there any defects in this method of passing struct and what
   improvements are possible ?

All defects are misalignments of intention and implementation.
If you don't know your intention clearly, it's easy for a defect
to creep in.  Improvements, likewise, depend on intention and pov.

       Specifically, are there ways to reduce verbosity without using cl
   or staying purely in elisp ?

You can use shorter variable names.  You can make your program
less piecewise-constructive and more table-oriented.

   [Q] Is there a way to avoid lengthy calling statement like
         (car (assoc-default :GOLD-value    GOLD )
       inside let,

       since the first argument of let is an alist of the form
            ((sym1 val1) (sym2 val2))

You need the ‘car’ because you do ‘(list k v)’.
If you use ‘(cons k v)’, then you do not need the ‘car’.

   [Q] Is there a way to using plists for return from find-my-marker-GOLD
       and utilize in the user function test-GOLD

Yes, but probably you will want to avoid plists.

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:13 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
> [cc changed to help-gnu-emacs -- this does not belong on emacs-devel]
>
> () Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
> () Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:15:08 -0800
>
>   [code]
>
> Here is ‘find-my-marker-GOLD’, munged a bit:
>
> (defun find-my-marker-GOLD ()
>  "Starting from anywhere in the file, find my marker GOLD its value
>   and location."
>  (interactive)
>  (save-excursion
>    (save-match-data
>      ;; Starting from the end of the accessible region, find GOLD.
>      (goto-char (point-max))
>      ;; a/ This value of this expression is discarded.
>      ;;    It turns out to be the same as "location" below,
>      ;;    so if you save it, you can avoid a call to ‘point’.
>      ;; b/ The optional args default to ‘nil’, and can be dropped.
>      (search-backward-regexp "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" nil nil nil)
>
>      ;; In the following, i have deleted the eol comments, which
>      ;; obscure more than enlighten (on my small computer screen).
>
>      ;; You might consider using `((k0 . ,v0)
>      ;;                            (k1 . ,v1))
>      ;; for succinctness (note backquote and comma placement).
>      ;; An intermediate solution is to use ‘acons’.
>      (list
>       (list
>        :GOLD-value
>        ;; The ‘replace-regexp-in-string’ is not necessary.
>        ;; The initial regexp match (above) already sets the match
>        ;; data; you can use ‘(match-string 1)’ to retrieve it.
>        (string-to-number
>         (replace-regexp-in-string "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" "\\1"  (match-string 0))))
>       (list
>        :GOLD-location
>        (point))))))
>
>   [Q] Are there any defects in this method of passing struct and what
>   improvements are possible ?
>

> All defects are misalignments of intention and implementation.
> If you don't know your intention clearly, it's easy for a defect
> to creep in.  Improvements, likewise, depend on intention and pov.

Excellent point.

>
>       Specifically, are there ways to reduce verbosity without using cl
>   or staying purely in elisp ?
>

> You can use shorter variable names.  You can make your program
> less piecewise-constructive and more table-oriented.

I would certainly need a toy example or even ask for taking this
example and showing me how to do it. I am not familiar with this
table-oriented approach.

>   [Q] Is there a way to avoid lengthy calling statement like
>         (car (assoc-default :GOLD-value    GOLD )
>       inside let,
>
>       since the first argument of let is an alist of the form
>            ((sym1 val1) (sym2 val2))
>

> You need the ‘car’ because you do ‘(list k v)’.
> If you use ‘(cons k v)’, then you do not need the ‘car’.

Good point

>
>   [Q] Is there a way to using plists for return from find-my-marker-GOLD
>       and utilize in the user function test-GOLD
>
> Yes, but probably you will want to avoid plists.
>

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
() Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:41:21 -0800

   > less piecewise-constructive and more table-oriented.

   I would certainly need a toy example or even ask for taking this
   example and showing me how to do it. I am not familiar with this
   table-oriented approach.

I would rather help you understand those words than show you how to
apply them.  (This is more work for both of us, initially, but less
work in the long run.)  What do you think of when you read them?

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 6:18 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
> () Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
> () Mon, 6 Dec 2010 07:41:21 -0800
>
>   > less piecewise-constructive and more table-oriented.
>
>   I would certainly need a toy example or even ask for taking this
>   example and showing me how to do it. I am not familiar with this
>   table-oriented approach.
>
> I would rather help you understand those words than show you how to
> apply them.  (This is more work for both of us, initially, but less
> work in the long run.)  What do you think of when you read them?
>

I need an example. These are abstract concepts and can be
conceptualized erroenously easily with resulting miscommunication.

Just give a concrete example of the beast. and show what you meant by
these terms.

which table do you mean ? symbol table, call table, ?

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:13 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
> [cc changed to help-gnu-emacs -- this does not belong on emacs-devel]
>
> () Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
> () Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:15:08 -0800
>
>   [code]
>
> Here is ‘find-my-marker-GOLD’, munged a bit:
>
> (defun find-my-marker-GOLD ()
>  "Starting from anywhere in the file, find my marker GOLD its value
>   and location."
>  (interactive)
>  (save-excursion
>    (save-match-data
>      ;; Starting from the end of the accessible region, find GOLD.
>      (goto-char (point-max))
>      ;; a/ This value of this expression is discarded.
>      ;;    It turns out to be the same as "location" below,
>      ;;    so if you save it, you can avoid a call to ‘point’.
>      ;; b/ The optional args default to ‘nil’, and can be dropped.
>      (search-backward-regexp "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" nil nil nil)
>
>      ;; In the following, i have deleted the eol comments, which
>      ;; obscure more than enlighten (on my small computer screen).
>
>      ;; You might consider using `((k0 . ,v0)
>      ;;                            (k1 . ,v1))
>      ;; for succinctness (note backquote and comma placement).
>      ;; An intermediate solution is to use ‘acons’.
>      (list
>       (list
>        :GOLD-value
>        ;; The ‘replace-regexp-in-string’ is not necessary.
>        ;; The initial regexp match (above) already sets the match
>        ;; data; you can use ‘(match-string 1)’ to retrieve it.
>        (string-to-number
>         (replace-regexp-in-string "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" "\\1"  (match-string 0))))
>       (list
>        :GOLD-location
>        (point))))))
>
>   [Q] Are there any defects in this method of passing struct and what
>   improvements are possible ?
>
> All defects are misalignments of intention and implementation.
> If you don't know your intention clearly, it's easy for a defect
> to creep in.  Improvements, likewise, depend on intention and pov.
>
>       Specifically, are there ways to reduce verbosity without using cl
>   or staying purely in elisp ?
>
> You can use shorter variable names.  You can make your program
> less piecewise-constructive and more table-oriented.
>
>   [Q] Is there a way to avoid lengthy calling statement like
>         (car (assoc-default :GOLD-value    GOLD )
>       inside let,
>
>       since the first argument of let is an alist of the form
>            ((sym1 val1) (sym2 val2))
>

OK lets take the suggestion below and show me how it works with my case ?

> You need the ‘car’ because you do ‘(list k v)’.
> If you use ‘(cons k v)’, then you do not need the ‘car’.

What I have is

(list (list k1 v1) (list k2 v2))

Now, kindly show me where I put the car to get both of these uniformly
communicated outside of the function to another function ? Later in
some cases I may have (k3 v3) pair !!!

>
>   [Q] Is there a way to using plists for return from find-my-marker-GOLD
>       and utilize in the user function test-GOLD
>
> Yes, but probably you will want to avoid plists.
>

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:13 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
>> [cc changed to help-gnu-emacs -- this does not belong on emacs-devel]
>>
>> () Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
>> () Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:15:08 -0800
>>
>>   [code]
>>
>> Here is ‘find-my-marker-GOLD’, munged a bit:
>>
>> (defun find-my-marker-GOLD ()
>>  "Starting from anywhere in the file, find my marker GOLD its value
>>   and location."
>>  (interactive)
>>  (save-excursion
>>    (save-match-data
>>      ;; Starting from the end of the accessible region, find GOLD.
>>      (goto-char (point-max))
>>      ;; a/ This value of this expression is discarded.
>>      ;;    It turns out to be the same as "location" below,
>>      ;;    so if you save it, you can avoid a call to ‘point’.
>>      ;; b/ The optional args default to ‘nil’, and can be dropped.
>>      (search-backward-regexp "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" nil nil nil)
>>
>>      ;; In the following, i have deleted the eol comments, which
>>      ;; obscure more than enlighten (on my small computer screen).
>>
>>      ;; You might consider using `((k0 . ,v0)
>>      ;;                            (k1 . ,v1))
>>      ;; for succinctness (note backquote and comma placement).
>>      ;; An intermediate solution is to use ‘acons’.
>>      (list
>>       (list
>>        :GOLD-value
>>        ;; The ‘replace-regexp-in-string’ is not necessary.
>>        ;; The initial regexp match (above) already sets the match
>>        ;; data; you can use ‘(match-string 1)’ to retrieve it.
>>        (string-to-number
>>         (replace-regexp-in-string "GOLD=\\([0-9]+\\)\n" "\\1"  (match-string 0))))
>>       (list
>>        :GOLD-location
>>        (point))))))
>>
>>   [Q] Are there any defects in this method of passing struct and what
>>   improvements are possible ?
>>
>> All defects are misalignments of intention and implementation.
>> If you don't know your intention clearly, it's easy for a defect
>> to creep in.  Improvements, likewise, depend on intention and pov.
>>
>>       Specifically, are there ways to reduce verbosity without using cl
>>   or staying purely in elisp ?
>>
>> You can use shorter variable names.  You can make your program
>> less piecewise-constructive and more table-oriented.
>>
>>   [Q] Is there a way to avoid lengthy calling statement like
>>         (car (assoc-default :GOLD-value    GOLD )
>>       inside let,
>>
>>       since the first argument of let is an alist of the form
>>            ((sym1 val1) (sym2 val2))
>>
>
> OK lets take the suggestion below and show me how it works with my case ?
>
>> You need the ‘car’ because you do ‘(list k v)’.
>> If you use ‘(cons k v)’, then you do not need the ‘car’.
>
> What I have is
>
> (list (list k1 v1) (list k2 v2))
>
> Now, kindly show me where I put the car to get both of these uniformly
> communicated outside of the function to another function ? Later in
> some cases I may have (k3 v3) pair !!!

Here is a sexp to play with ready in hand ... so show me how to do it ?

(assoc-default 'y '((w 0) (x 1) (y 2) (z 3)))


>>
>>   [Q] Is there a way to using plists for return from find-my-marker-GOLD
>>       and utilize in the user function test-GOLD
>>
>> Yes, but probably you will want to avoid plists.
>>
>

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[PJ Weisberg]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:

>>   [Q] Is there a way to avoid lengthy calling statement like
>>         (car (assoc-default :GOLD-value    GOLD )
>>       inside let,
>>
>>       since the first argument of let is an alist of the form
>>            ((sym1 val1) (sym2 val2))
>>
>
> OK lets take the suggestion below and show me how it works with my case ?
>
>> You need the ‘car’ because you do ‘(list k v)’.
>> If you use ‘(cons k v)’, then you do not need the ‘car’.
>
> What I have is
>
> (list (list k1 v1) (list k2 v2))
>
> Now, kindly show me where I put the car to get both of these uniformly
> communicated outside of the function to another function ? Later in
> some cases I may have (k3 v3) pair !!!

Don't put the car anywhere.  Change that to (list (cons k1 v1) (cons
k2 v2)) and then use use (assoc-default k1 myList), (assoc-default k2
myList), etc.

With that sexp you gave earlier,

(assoc-default 'y '((w . 0) (x . 1) (y . 2) (z . 3)))

Now it returns 2 instead of (2), so if you wanted the number you don't
need car to get it.

I think you were asking the difference between cons and list, and I
was going to write some kind of explanation, but apparently the part
of my brain that's capable of explaining things clearly has already
gone to sleep, so before I turn in I'll just say that lisp uses linked
lists with one "cons cell" for each item in the list, and those things
that look like lists but have dots in them are a result of someone
abusing "cons" to make a cons cell whose 'next' pointer points to
something other than the next cons cell in a list.

RE: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Drew Adams]

> those things that look like lists but have dots in them are
> a result of someone abusing "cons" to make a cons cell whose
> 'next' pointer points to something other than the next cons
> cell in a list.

Actually this is not an abuse of poor little `cons'.  ;-)

The list `(x)' is in fact an example of such "abusive" behavior: the cdr
("next") is the symbol `nil', which is an atom, not a cons cell: `(x . nil)'.

It is correct to say that cons cells are used to build lists, and that that is
their most common use.  And that a list is either `nil' or a cons cell whose cdr
is a list.  But it is also correct that some cons cells are not lists, i.e., do
not have a list as their cdr.

`cons' is untyped wrt its parameters.  It is not only the first parameter (the
car) that need not be a list, but also the second (the cdr).

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[PJ Weisberg]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 7:14 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> those things that look like lists but have dots in them are
>> a result of someone abusing "cons" to make a cons cell whose
>> 'next' pointer points to something other than the next cons
>> cell in a list.
>
> Actually this is not an abuse of poor little `cons'.  ;-)
>
> The list `(x)' is in fact an example of such "abusive" behavior: the cdr
> ("next") is the symbol `nil', which is an atom, not a cons cell: `(x . nil)'.
>
> It is correct to say that cons cells are used to build lists, and that that is
> their most common use.  And that a list is either `nil' or a cons cell whose cdr
> is a list.  But it is also correct that some cons cells are not lists, i.e., do
> not have a list as their cdr.
>
> `cons' is untyped wrt its parameters.  It is not only the first parameter (the
> car) that need not be a list, but also the second (the cdr).

Yeah, I hesitated to use 'abuse' there, but I was tired and decided to
opt for the more colorful language.  :-)

The first thing I think of when I think of cons is a trivial example
from a college class, like "(cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))" to make a
3-item list.  So I usually think of cons as a way to add something to
the front of a list  (nil being the same thing as an empty list).

Basically, 'list' and 'cons' both return a cons cell.  With 'cons',
the car of the cons cell is the first argument and the cdr is the
second argument.  With 'list', the car is the first argument and the
cdr is another cons cell, whose car is the second argument and whose
cdr is another cons cell, and so on until you get to a cons cell whose
car is the last argument and whose cdr is nil.

I was trying to come up with an example to show how 'list' was like a
bunch of 'cons's, but the part of my brain that can do recursion was
in sleep mode, and then the best I came up with was

(defun my-list( &rest args )
  (if args
      (cons (car args) (eval (cons 'my-list (cdr args))))
    nil))

and I didn't think was was clarifying *anything* if I had to use eval
to while I was explaining cons.  ;-)

P.S.:  For the benefit of lisp beginners who don't know, if args is
'(1 2 3 4), then (cdr args) is '(2 3 4), and (cons 'my-list '(2 3 4))
is '(my-list 2 3 4).  Doesn't that look like a function call?  eval
treats it as such.

Fwd: Fwd: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

also forwarded to gnu.emacs.help via the mailing list <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: How to remove verbosity from the data passing
mechanism using alist or plist ?
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: "Emacs Dev [emacs-devel]" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>


On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>> There was no reply from the help mailing list and this is very
>
> That's because the question is completely incomprehensible.  When you
> ask a question, always assume your readers are dimwits, and explain
> every detail of what you're trying to do, rather than just spitting what
> you're doing and assume people will understand.
>
>
>        Stefan
>

flame bait ignored :))))

The question is VERY CLEAR !!! and SPECIFIC at the LAST STAGE !!!

==============================================================
OK lets take the suggestion below and show me how it works with my case ?


> You need the ‘car’ because you do ‘(list k v)’.
> If you use ‘(cons k v)’, then you do not need the ‘car’.


What I have is

(list (list k1 v1) (list k2 v2))

Now, kindly show me where I put the car to get both of these uniformly
communicated outside of the function to another function ? Later in
some cases I may have (k3 v3) pair !!!


==============================================================

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[PJ Weisberg]

On 12/7/10, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes it helped, but I cant honestly see the difference between
> (a . b)  <--- from cons
> and
> (a b)    <--- from list
>
> both seem to be dotted pair although the dot is implicit in the second.

No.  The first is a dotted pair.  The second is a list.  I guess you
*could* say a dot was implicit, but the "explicit" version would be

(a . (b . nil))

-PJ

Re: Fwd: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1149 bytes --]

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org>wrote:

> Fren Zeee writes:
>  > Thien-Thi was on the right track and understood the problem well as his
>  > reply indicate as far as I understood it. He has disappeared or refusing
> to
>  > show up. probably this nourishes the ego of such geeks.
>
> You would be best advised to stop trolling.  Everybody on this list
> knows how to use a killfile; by now you're in many.
>

"troll" is a prejudicial terminology, worse than anti-semitism, anti-gypsies
...  and reserved for hating those who need help by those who got some
chance via university or company courses --- all ultimately from tax payer
money to learn ...

Ask Robert Stallman if emacs is based on lisp and if McCarthy invented it
from tax payer funded government grants to MIT or if it rained from moon ?

Be clear, precise and objective in your replies. I challenge you to rebut me
on this point of funding !!! Your phd is most likely funded from tax payer
money and even if you did TA ship, the infra-structure is public funding ...


Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...

just get it.

Franz Xe

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Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Miles Bader]

Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
> Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...

How about "netkook"?

Sometimes that's the most accurate term.

-Miles

-- 
Dictionary, n.  A malevolent literary device for cramping the growth of
a language and making it hard and inelastic. This dictionary, however,
is a most useful work.

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1356 bytes --]

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
> > Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...
>
> How about "netkook"?
>
> Sometimes that's the most accurate term.
>
> -Miles

Regardless, of your prejudice, its a hate term and you are MALICIOUS because
you wasted bandwidth on useless destructive flaming than constructive reply
to the issue of the thread.

It has no relevance to the thread.

Turnbull is a victim of bad tutoring from the internet at the hands of
netkooks themselves who have ingrained this prejudice in him.

I was trying to analytically correct him and you too.

It is well known that those who learnt with difficulty or some other causes
of malicious psychology, practice the same meanness to impede the path of
others and use various tactics to derail the thread by diversionary tactics
of flaming etc.

But dispassionate analysis can defeat it or exhibit the lack of information
when its presence is actually claimed.

Lets get moving with the issue of this thread from where this diversion
started.
Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or
plist ?


> --
> Dictionary, n.  A malevolent literary device for cramping the growth of
> a language and making it hard and inelastic. This dictionary, however,
> is a most useful work.

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Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

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Lets get moving with the issue of this thread from _BEFORE_ where this
diversion started.
Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or
plist ?

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:

>  On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
> >
> > Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
> > > Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...
> >
> > How about "netkook"?
> >
> > Sometimes that's the most accurate term.
> >
> > -Miles
>
> Regardless, of your prejudice, its a hate term and you are MALICIOUS
> because you wasted bandwidth on useless destructive flaming than
> constructive reply to the issue of the thread.
>
> It has no relevance to the thread.
>
> Turnbull is a victim of bad tutoring from the internet at the hands of
> netkooks themselves who have ingrained this prejudice in him.
>
> I was trying to analytically correct him and you too.
>
> It is well known that those who learnt with difficulty or some other causes
> of malicious psychology, practice the same meanness to impede the path of
> others and use various tactics to derail the thread by diversionary tactics
> of flaming etc.
>
> But dispassionate analysis can defeat it or exhibit the lack of information
> when its presence is actually claimed.
>
> Lets get moving with the issue of this thread from where this diversion
> started.
>  Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist
> or plist ?
>
>
> > --
>   > Dictionary, n.  A malevolent literary device for cramping the growth
> of
> > a language and making it hard and inelastic. This dictionary, however,
> > is a most useful work.
>
>
>

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Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[David Kastrup]

Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
>> > Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...
>>
>> How about "netkook"?
>
> Regardless, of your prejudice, its a hate term and you are MALICIOUS
> because you wasted bandwidth on useless destructive flaming than
> constructive reply to the issue of the thread. 
>
> It has no relevance to the thread.
>
> Turnbull is a victim of bad tutoring from the internet at the hands of
> netkooks themselves who have ingrained this prejudice in him.

Calling somebody only by his last name (without either title or given
name) when he is participating in the conversation, is considered quite
rude in the English-speaking world.

> I was trying to analytically correct him and you too.

Now you are insulting Freud as well.

I consider both Miles Bader as well as Stephen Turnbull perfectly
capable of forming their own opinion when somebody spouts nonsense.  One
does not need any "netkooks" or other outside agents to form a qualified
opinion about the things you consider fit for writing.

They speak for themselves.  And are the only things speaking for you in
a written medium.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:45 PM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
> >> > Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...
> >>
> >> How about "netkook"?
> >
> > Regardless, of your prejudice, its a hate term and you are MALICIOUS
> > because you wasted bandwidth on useless destructive flaming than
> > constructive reply to the issue of the thread.
> >
> > It has no relevance to the thread.
> >
> > Turnbull is a victim of bad tutoring from the internet at the hands of
> > netkooks themselves who have ingrained this prejudice in him.
>
> Calling somebody only by his last name (without either title or given
> name) when he is participating in the conversation, is considered quite
> rude in the English-speaking world.

well thats not a universal convention and quite a contrived argument.
I would not stoop to his level and call him a troll which is a hate
terminology.

I think your assessment is based more on his utility to contribute and
the small network where richard stallman has shared summarized
knowledge.

we know that the original model was to give code but keep the
documentation emaciated. Its written in a machiavellian style, where
you have to already know it to understand it. Thats why it takes a
long learning curve.

You are a prime writer on comp.text.tex where donald knuth has also
given a certain tex manual as a tex file which has to be understood to
be able to latex it ... i am just trying to explain what certain
"fathers" have propagated a disease in the community by example and
others imitating it.

> > I was trying to analytically correct him and you too.
>
> Now you are insulting Freud as well.

lol

> I consider both Miles Bader as well as Stephen Turnbull perfectly
> capable of forming their own opinion when somebody spouts nonsense.  One
> does not need any "netkooks" or other outside agents to form a qualified
> opinion about the things you consider fit for writing.
>
> They speak for themselves.  And are the only things speaking for you in
> a written medium.
>

Your refusal to turn this into constructive and focus on the subject
of the thread says more. Besides, your past record of giving cynical
replies on various groups is long and people know it.

Again, i challenge you to revert to the original topic of the thread.

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:45 PM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> > Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...
>> >>
>> >> How about "netkook"?
>> >
>> > Regardless, of your prejudice, its a hate term and you are MALICIOUS
>> > because you wasted bandwidth on useless destructive flaming than
>> > constructive reply to the issue of the thread.
>> >
>> > It has no relevance to the thread.
>> >
>> > Turnbull is a victim of bad tutoring from the internet at the hands of
>> > netkooks themselves who have ingrained this prejudice in him.
>>
>> Calling somebody only by his last name (without either title or given
>> name) when he is participating in the conversation, is considered quite
>> rude in the English-speaking world.
>
> well thats not a universal convention and quite a contrived argument.
> I would not stoop to his level and call him a troll which is a hate
> terminology.
>
> I think your assessment is based more on his utility to contribute and
> the small network where richard stallman has shared summarized
> knowledge.
>
> we know that the original model was to give code but keep the
> documentation emaciated. Its written in a machiavellian style, where
> you have to already know it to understand it. Thats why it takes a
> long learning curve.
>
> You are a prime writer on comp.text.tex where donald knuth has also
> given a certain tex manual as a tex file which has to be understood to
> be able to latex it ... i am just trying to explain what certain
> "fathers" have propagated a disease in the community by example and
> others imitating it.
>
>> > I was trying to analytically correct him and you too.
>>
>> Now you are insulting Freud as well.
>
> lol
>
>> I consider both Miles Bader as well as Stephen Turnbull perfectly
>> capable of forming their own opinion when somebody spouts nonsense.  One
>> does not need any "netkooks" or other outside agents to form a qualified
>> opinion about the things you consider fit for writing.

Get reading help.

I did not introduce the term "netkook" in this thread. Its Miles Bader.

Infact, every single derogatory label that has been introduced in this
thread is by someone other than myself.

All I am asking for the resumption of and completion of the ideas
advanced by Thien-Thi towards the subject of discussion in this
thread.

Good usage of the language would help us become a contributor which I
earnestly aspire to be.

Remember, gnu software movement was about sharing source code and
comments (and explanations and good programming ideas) are part of the
same. Its not tutoring service. Those withholding the simple reply are
the ones dragging this unnecessarily. I have seen development threads
where there is a question like this. Someone wanted a code review
which begs the question of checking and giving ideas.

Cheers,
Franz Xe



>> They speak for themselves.  And are the only things speaking for you in
>> a written medium.
>>
>
> Your refusal to turn this into constructive and focus on the subject
> of the thread says more. Besides, your past record of giving cynical
> replies on various groups is long and people know it.
>
> Again, i challenge you to revert to the original topic of the thread.
>

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
() Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:45:17 -0800

   kindly show me where I put the car [...]

If i include an attachment in this response, you must extract it.
However, if i inline the same information, you can read it directly.

  attachment -> extraction  ::  list -> car
                    inline  ::  cons

This is also known as "putting the ‘car’ nowhere".

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
> () Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
> () Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:45:17 -0800
>
>   kindly show me where I put the car [...]
>
> If i include an attachment in this response, you must extract it.
> However, if i inline the same information, you can read it directly.
>
>  attachment -> extraction  ::  list -> car
>                    inline  ::  cons
>
> This is also known as "putting the ‘car’ nowhere".
>

Sorry, I did not understand it at all. It flew over my head. If this
is a subtle concept, I ask you to explain it with greater detail and
in smaller steps.

Franz

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[PJ Weisberg]

On 12/7/10, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I did not understand it at all. It flew over my head. If this
> is a subtle concept, I ask you to explain it with greater detail and
> in smaller steps.

I think he said the same thing I said, except he used a metaphore.
;-)  I.e., you don't need a car at all if you don't wrap the value in
a list to begin with.

-PJ

Re: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism using alist or plist ?

[Fren Zeee]

>       Specifically, are there ways to reduce verbosity without using cl
>   or staying purely in elisp ?
>
> You can use shorter variable names.  You can make your program
> less piecewise-constructive and more table-oriented.
>

Thien-Thi Nguyen

You mean

less piece meal construction (step by step construction)

and

more table driven , like some kind of FSM ? from state to state ?

Franz