From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Fren Zeee Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:30 -0800 Message-ID: References: <87wrncr2vp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <69C26D94-1F93-4EF5-BB22-38B0B74E46BC@raeburn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1292620168 32222 80.91.229.12 (17 Dec 2010 21:09:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:09:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Emacs Dev To: Ken Raeburn Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 17 22:09:18 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PThYD-0000iC-Jr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 22:09:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37733 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PThYC-0005Zw-K2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:09:16 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=34312 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PThXo-0005Rb-Bh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:09:05 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PThXU-0003jE-1H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:08:51 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:61872) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PThXT-0003iX-SO; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:08:31 -0500 Original-Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so1282028iwn.0 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=48isijaYQoyWVcZnafoMqroO0wjrfUtSYd/klRwE11Q=; b=wyYlkKeuQ9sNoBT9k44ivLLN3JT3PltLAiiFfQTPh0SMsKgGs+LG59U4MmiN7burkN ZDQiJu0bdSOoLv4vfWDGu3lLMeFxm/TfiXEfi+bOAdb4/VAy3Ue6bMBevobuPu645tzK yi8AwTC8UpfhFlTWavwAEC9FrpToK1QHQ+WRA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i2VBKPNZeJGj/G0Fj7+HMU/gKglYCHNMSLeIBATdN/BIBZOJelUQ0FkHFLlTJaqxpc x2v1mxjuDAblktHTEv00C6mdxxN8Jj4HGe0+YikgHs2EIyh77PNKaLH+VbP6dvAxSI8y QozMMXWD8/xcSgSNEj4NXn+l+pbhdzYLeT0nE= Original-Received: by 10.231.17.4 with SMTP id q4mr1284626iba.13.1292620110187; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:30 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.231.11.137 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:08:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <69C26D94-1F93-4EF5-BB22-38B0B74E46BC@raeburn.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:133773 gmane.emacs.help:77633 Archived-At: If the definition of troll is what wiki gives that it applies not on me but on those who have written replies that never pertained to the original "subject" of the thread. "no obligation" is not an argument, because in any communication if there is a partial reply it should be finished by "i am ending communication" or "i will continue communication" otherwise the other person is left hanging. Even a simple communication protocol like TCP/IP requires these elements. Thien-Thi gave a partial reply and then no reply. he could say this is all i can do, so some others could continue. These are just basic manners. while the professor Turnbull came and use the verb trolling which did not contribute to the subject of the thread also. There are two more people who have indicated that the term troll is used from the context on hating or is no argument. I use apropos and existing facilites of help a lot and have my own special shortcuts for them as well as the elisp manual. Maybe, you could have replied to the other technical thread (subject: ... verbosity ...) also than writing this long essay on this one. On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Ken Raeburn wrote: > On Dec 14, 2010, at 14:03, Fren Zeee wrote: >> Thats why your post (later i realized ... a private email) made me >> think and it was a eureka moment to realize what troll stood for and I >> expressed it clearly. Other authors above have said that they could >> not understand this vague term whose true meaning is only known by its >> context of usage. I thank them for their contribution and testimonial. >> >> Because it has no dictionary meaning, it continued to be used >> effectively by dark forces to denigrade people. My post should help >> label it as what it really is. > > Depends on your dictionary, I guess. =A0See, for example, http://en.wikip= edia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php= ?term=3Dtroll or other sources. =A0Wikipedia says trolling is use of "infla= mmatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community...with th= e primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response= or of otherwise disrupting the normal on-topic discussion"; the term deriv= es from a fishing technique (and according to Wikipedia, the term for the s= ame type of Internet persona in other languages also often derives from fis= hing terms). =A0It was used in response to your remarks on Thien-Thi's not = continuing to provide you with help: "He has disappeared or refusing to sho= w up. probably this nourishes the ego of such geeks." =A0In my limited expe= rience, "trolls" are usually a bit more off-topic, not really interested in= learning anything, but such an ad-hominem remark is characteristic; perhap= s in other corners of the Internet the term is applied a little differently= . =A0Regardless, I don't see it as "hate terminology", especially in the ve= rb form, but as a description of observed actions, especially if there is a= pattern to the behavior. =A0On the other hand, the way you use "geek" soun= ds rather derogatory; I find your statement at least as offensive as the la= bel of "troll", perhaps in part because you're labeling the person, while t= he label "trolling" was applied to your actions on these mailing lists. > > (As to the question of a pattern, "hating those who need help by those wh= o got some chance via university or company courses --- all ultimately from= tax payer money to learn" also seems intended to provoke, to me.) > > Please remember, this is a volunteer effort; you don't have a support con= tract, no one is being paid to help you, and no one owes it to you. =A0Perh= aps Thien-Thi is busy with his day job, or family matters, or illness, or s= omething else that's quite reasonably more important to him than teaching y= ou about Emacs Lisp programming. =A0Perhaps he doesn't mind answering a que= stion now and then but doesn't want to be cast as your regular tutor. =A0I = don't know, and for the most part it doesn't really matter. =A0It's not his= job, and he didn't have to reply to you in the first place. =A0I see no re= ason to suspect he's intentionally "withholding" anything from you. > > Many people on these lists *want* to help, when they can, based on knowle= dge, available time, etc. =A0But they also expect some things of you, for e= xample: that you communicate clearly what you're asking (and I've seen case= s before where reasonable people have significantly different communication= styles, or too little common ground between them, or different ways of thi= nking about something, or just a fundamental misunderstanding that neither = recognizes, such that it takes a lot of work for them to be able to communi= cate with each other effectively); that you don't ask a lot of questions al= ready answered in published documentation, especially if you've already bee= n referred to it; that you send questions only to the appropriate list (or,= very rarely, lists, plural); that you be willing to look at a little code,= or look through help file indexes (or for Emacs, use M-x apropros), or do = some experiments to try to figure out how things work first (especially if = you're asking on the developers list rather than the help list); that you n= ot attack the people helping you, or insist that they owe you more help tha= n they're giving. =A0I'm not saying you haven't done these things; I haven'= t paid that much attention, and don't have time to. =A0But you might ask yo= urself whether you have, or whether people seem to think you haven't. > > Then again, the developers list is not primarily focused on helping peopl= e learn their way around Emacs, and learn to program in Emacs Lisp. =A0Unli= ke on the "help" lists, that's not primarily why people join. =A0Insisting = that they answer all your questions isn't likely to be well received. > > Please have a little more respect for the people trying to help out here,= even if they can't help you as much as you might like, and more tolerance = for the occasionally abrasive ones. =A0More than you think they're showing = you, if possible. > > Ken