From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Someone start maintaining luddites.el Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 14:00:39 -0800 Message-ID: References: <2BB5D34A-49FF-4EDC-81BA-1C9881E15276@gmail.com> <87r19wszuh.fsf@yahoo.com> <5C889C0D-5692-495B-8594-59324636B28A@gmail.com> <87mtkjubzv.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ee5vu5sa.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2223"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs , Stefan Monnier To: Po Lu Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 31 23:01:12 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n3PxY-0000Sb-1R for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 23:01:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44756 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3PxW-0003vF-RG for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 17:01:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44450) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3Px7-0003us-1Y for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 17:00:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e] (port=42943 helo=mail-pl1-x62e.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3Px5-0007ix-87 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 17:00:44 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id u16so20923231plg.9 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 14:00:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=SdzVBtSX8O+PwSWkK77THV/qadDLIsuXkegk79S6fnM=; b=QVOvdXuKrd6E4HuG2xfr55WTWIpGsyMkDWFo80JaPkRJ5PqT69Av1xea8Oy3YZhqir TtRiowxTA94N5ypbl5Dq+U1mkT8u3zFPSYI5HEwqodLwRgI29aX+RBUHjb/KudFmpszr aWhHRUM0uE1VHQWw5ZXBProB48RQElFsLk8UxMQ92/Kt5RL8SAgRUvQivKtJLscxrSi0 29HLD3gfhvfvRmF0aqQooYC/Y8a6YswTbm+GZlw2/FONMCi0gfxX67VxmgfyCjpWALhB 53uQMywh7V2+20V8vSO6IYri9j6sjocV7f3uWsb23NLojv0TaaYrrtoiSJF0CNeRcjTd nCUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=SdzVBtSX8O+PwSWkK77THV/qadDLIsuXkegk79S6fnM=; b=aLgWlc+YJqvL6nY+PHrr6N3HiJxawfcMWzMfkYQWmxtwoIUkEaPodmcp5haBL4DDbq k/aJSQap1E69e2aQyoEDayHYA1WamqyglJd5olwjuOSoDFvOhlLQrYdQ4EAeaV+/FVQd jUn0y6LwxfFJQpneSPsH+TkJK83OA8sskRMdlvX8giLsMLDEs53JDecTBvjocfx4M7h7 0B2vgDr35Nl9RE1DXoWzzRDGOd9oONovd6IsLuTVf887Bx3jirnmrnRIJafchxba4AI8 4EQ1EK+n1yrJNInpgK7T/XYj/YQBqgkQYHieqzAYbSUh+Tkxh30hG0d7WoLRiAQfxwdw BjQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KQ90BEeukvlb4MwI0T2eGAhCW+CxQjhjiV/CCmg8ywvZBX6Ho dVnYt1geonuXBypireTjiIY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEW/Fxp60gpP9FedHis5XP/BvWjeTvVj1SLRkGosx8SvlApIcXk45vLqvSi/Lozk0c7KKXGw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6b02:b0:149:9c7d:3ae7 with SMTP id o2-20020a1709026b0200b001499c7d3ae7mr13705715plk.51.1640988041410; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 14:00:41 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:2ec7:8c90:d85e:8f59:4e9a:7cc9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f14sm32438070pfv.215.2021.12.31.14.00.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Dec 2021 14:00:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ee5vu5sa.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.6 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:135090 Archived-At: I think it will be good if we focus on discussing whether adding such a = feature would harm Emacs, in the form of changing default values too = soon. And I=E2=80=99ll save some typing and not reply to your concerns = that I think doesn=E2=80=99t contribute to that topic. >=20 >> Even if you don=E2=80=99t read NEWS, you know what the mode does: it = keeps >> Emacs behave the same as it currently is. So you shouldn=E2=80=99t = need to >> remember or read or understand anything. And again, if you don=E2=80=99= t like >> it, you don=E2=80=99t have to use it. So I don=E2=80=99t think it = adds any burden to >> you. >=20 > No, I'll have to read the antinews in order to come to an intelligent > decision as to whether or not it should be enabled. >=20 >> I think the effectiveness of this mode, in terms of support of adding >> changes, would be equivalent to =E2=80=9Cyou can add a line of code = to .emacs >> to revert it=E2=80=9D. Ie, not much different from the status quo. = It=E2=80=99s just >> AFTER the change is made, one=E2=80=99s life is easier if he decides = that he >> don=E2=80=99t want any of that. >=20 > That's extra trouble for everyone, and you still haven't demonstrated > why someone won't say: >=20 > Let's set indent-tabs-mode to nil by default, people can just revert > it by turning on luddites-mode. >=20 > Or something to that effect. People now says "Let's set indent-tabs-mode to nil by default, people = can just revert it by adding a line in init.el=E2=80=9D, don=E2=80=99t = they? luddites-mode doesn=E2=80=99t change anything, in particular, it = doesn=E2=80=99t make anything worse. >=20 >> If a variable is removed, we can=E2=80=99t help it. But if it is = removed, >> there must be very good reason to do so and it must has been = obsoleted >> for many years, ie, it=E2=80=99s due time. If it is just obsolete, = resetting >> it shouldn=E2=80=99t hurt anything. >=20 > But one will have to Have to what? >=20 >>> Then let's see which causes the smallest mob of people who complain. >=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t quite understand that. What are you referring to as = =E2=80=9Cwhich=E2=80=9D? >=20 > "Which one of the options that people are complaining about" I=E2=80=99m pointing out that there is no definitive answer to when a = thing is due to change, so =E2=80=9Cchange when its due=E2=80=9D is not = a good solution. Now you are saying =E2=80=9Clet people discuss and come = to agreement=E2=80=9D, that=E2=80=99s not the same as =E2=80=9Cchange = when it's due=E2=80=9D. But I guess that=E2=80=99s not relavent to the = current topic of =E2=80=9Cwhether luddites-mode hurts Emacs=E2=80=9D. >=20 >> They are equivalent, but a switch is more convenient. The whole point >> (I think) is that it=E2=80=99s equivalent to adding code to init.el, = but more >> convenient: you don=E2=80=99t need to figure out what code to add, = you don=E2=80=99t >> need to maintain the code, you don=E2=80=99t need to remember what = that code >> does and why it is added, etc. >=20 > As I said, you will have to understand _all_ of what changed in order = to > make an intelligent decision to turn it on or off, whereas without = such > a feature, people can just individually revert the changes that cause > them inconvenience. >=20 Yuan