From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: member returns list Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <91d13d72-cc94-4a52-ab0a-15db05f82c73@default> References: <55E5C99B.3020608@yandex.ru> <87lhcpu2wb.fsf_-_@debian.uxu> <874mjchisl.fsf@web.de> <87pp20jxy7.fsf@debian.uxu> <87twrcxyfk.fsf@mbork.pl> <87y4gnt2r5.fsf@debian.uxu> <87twran0dw.fsf@mbork.pl> <87d1xwbwh9.fsf@debian.uxu> <87oahgbfmp.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87k2s3b5xw.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441593523 28115 80.91.229.3 (7 Sep 2015 02:38:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 02:38:43 +0000 (UTC) To: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 04:38:27 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZYmK9-0001SE-6u for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2015 04:38:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52268 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZYmK9-0007y8-Hd for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:38:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45719) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZYmJy-0007xk-SW for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:38:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZYmJv-0004u2-Kj for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:38:14 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:48305) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZYmJv-0004tF-Ep for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:38:11 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t872c84L000589 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 7 Sep 2015 02:38:08 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t872c78h027607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Sep 2015 02:38:08 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t872c41f025555; Mon, 7 Sep 2015 02:38:06 GMT In-Reply-To: <87k2s3b5xw.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:107064 Archived-At: > But basically, he started GNU emacs and designing emacs lisp slightly > beforem the CL standardization process started, and it was far from > obviouos that it would succeed (it took ten years!). Hm... Dunno when you want to say that RMS "started" designing Emacs Lisp. But I think I disagree with what I think you are saying about when "the CL standardization process started". The first public release of GNU Emacs was in 1985. Common Lisp was designed over a period of years prior to that, and RMS was at least somewhat involved with that design process (he was well aware of it, to say the least). Common Lisp was defined by 1984. The book that specified its definition, Common Lisp the Language, was published in 1984 (I'm looking at my 1984 copy now), and it is quite clear from that book that the language design that it presents (specifies, in detail) was agreed upon by all of the design participants. It is a thoroughgoing specification of the language, and as such it was used as the guide when implementing CL here and there. Was that a "standard". I would say so. It was a full definition, and it thus allowed people to go out and develop implementations. Whether it was a "standard" blessed by this or that standards body is a moot point, IMO. And there were already working implementations of Common Lisp in 1984. It was being used by programmers in various labs in 1984. And new Common Lisp implementations were fast underway in 1984 (e.g. for new Lisp machines). I was using Kyoto Common Lisp in 1984, for instance. It was not a great implementation at that point, but it was usable. It was developed just on the basis of studying the spec (CLtL). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Common_Lisp Not only was Common Lisp defined by 1984, it was even already criticized in a paper in the 1984 Symposium on Lisp and Functional Programming, "Critique of Common Lisp". See The Evolution of Lisp, http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Hopl2.pdf >From another recent thread here ("print out all members of a list"): >>>> How is that possible, since Emacs Lisp came out AFTER Scheme and Commo= n=20 >>>> Lisp? CLtL was published in 1984, the same year Stallman started=20 >>>> writing GNU Emacs? And Scheme is older, since CL took a number of ide= as=20 >>>> from it (most notably lexical scoping). >>>=20 >>> At the same time as CL. =20 >>> The CL standard was completed in 1994. 1984 only marks the beginning >>> of the standardization effort. I disagree with that characterization. The fact that Common Lisp continued to be refined as a standard, and the fact that CLOS and ANSI Common Lisp came later, does not mean that CL had not already been defined by 1984. > For example, Franz, Inc. switched over to CL only after 1985 > and had CL available only in 1986. Franz Lisp was widely distributed and mature, while CL had few implementations at that point. Eventually Franz Inc. was formed and it produced its own implementation of Common Lisp. But the fact that Franz Inc. did not have a CL in 1984 does not mean that CL had not been designed by then, let alone that it was not defined until 1994! Other CL implementations existed in 1984, and still others were in the process of development. This development was all happening (rapidly) because CL had already been designed, as a standard. The mere fact that Franz Inc. could and would set out to implement its own CL after 1984 underlines the fact that CL had already been defined by then. > http://franz.com/about/company.history.lhtml > http://emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsHistory