MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

[I am a "macro editor kind of guy going way back but
have always ended up giving up on Windows Emacs
do to inconsistencies in the user interface by have
finally made a rule to USE IT, until it seems natural --
and change only what I must from the defaults at first.]

Obviously Alt-F File, Alt-H Help, etc., conflict with
other Meta key sequences.

How have others solved this issue (beside just adapting
as I miss my Alt-F Save file etc.)

Several options I am considering:
    1) Use <F10 key> (this has always been an alternative to Alt-key)
        (requires much retraining of my hand and brain but might be best
        since it will continue to work on OTHER Windows systems.)
    2) Make up another key sequence, e.g., "Ctrl-Alt etc" for the
        Win-menu keys.
    3) Redefine all the Alt-keys for emacs (worse than above probably)
    4) Use the Esc-key meta sequence and get the Alt-key sequence back
        for Windows menus

Something else?

What do those of you who use MS Windows habitually and love Emacs do
or recommend that you have seen work for someone?

And if you know of a ready made solution please let me know.  (Please
note that I am NOT talking about basic CUA functionality as that is
working just fine.)

    4) Find another lead-in (a la F10) for the menu keys

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Johan Bockgård]

"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:

>     4) Find another lead-in (a la F10) for the menu keys

Maybe you could try freeing the left "flying window" key (if you have
a Windows version there this is possible) for that purpose. See

Customize Your Keyboard Mapping 
http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article02-022

-- 
Join us on #emacs @ irc.freenode.net.
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/EmacsChannel

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

[Thanks to everyone who was responding and thinking
it through with me....I appreciate it.  I am actually responding
to everyone who tried to help (so far) in this one message.]

> Maybe you could try freeing the left "flying window" key (if you have
> a Windows version there this is possible) for that purpose. See


That is a pretty good idea but as far as I know that
WinKey is "desktop global" and would require applet
code outside of emacs and mess up things like minimize
all windows, run apps, etc.

(I actually use the silly thing and even have such  program
which let's me map more keys to it to run stuff.)

Also, it would have to work for all "arbitrary" Menu items
and that doesn't seem likely.

Peter says, avoid the menus, but like some of you now have
the Meta keys in your DNA, Alt-F Save and such are
embedded in my HANDS as neural networks my brain does
not have to consider.

I tend to use menus without the mouse; using the hot/accelerator
keys.

F10 seems to be the best "general" solution so far.  Oh, well,
new DNA for me.

Javier's nice little "simulate-Alt-tap" function (the name actually)
gave me the idea that what might work best was a "alt-release"
does the menus" and otherwise it's a Meta key (or maybe
alt-double-tap as an option)

Because most of us never notice but Alt-F on Windows can
be Alt THEN F and it works just fine for File.  So we
differentate Meta-Key from Alt then Key and only a small
DNA adaptation is needed for the hueman.  <grin>

Now I have to figure out how to do that and how to add
accelerators to SOME of the menu settings -- I just noticed that
the 'accelerators' are "Start Menu" style where the first "S"
goes to the first, then second etc, rather than being an auto
S-selection UNLESS there is only one....

Ok, general principle "don't fight it" unless it's necessary, and
the accelerator behavior might be BETTER -- I use that in
the Start Menus anyway.

Anyone who read this far, thanks for thinking it through.

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Javier Oviedo]

I was given the function below from someone on this newsgroup. I bind this
function to M-` (Alt-`) and then type the letter of the particular menu item
to bring that up....arrow keys also work. I hope this is helpful.

M-` F  ==> File
M-` E  ==> Edit
...

;;; Emulate ALT+
(defun jbr-w32-simulate-Alt-tap ()
  (interactive)
  (w32-send-sys-command 61696))
;;;


--
Javier


"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> wrote in message
news:SIiYa.146257$XV.7789695@twister.austin.rr.com...
> [I am a "macro editor kind of guy going way back but
> have always ended up giving up on Windows Emacs
> do to inconsistencies in the user interface by have
> finally made a rule to USE IT, until it seems natural --
> and change only what I must from the defaults at first.]
>
> Obviously Alt-F File, Alt-H Help, etc., conflict with
> other Meta key sequences.
>
> How have others solved this issue (beside just adapting
> as I miss my Alt-F Save file etc.)
>
> Several options I am considering:
>     1) Use <F10 key> (this has always been an alternative to Alt-key)
>         (requires much retraining of my hand and brain but might be best
>         since it will continue to work on OTHER Windows systems.)
>     2) Make up another key sequence, e.g., "Ctrl-Alt etc" for the
>         Win-menu keys.
>     3) Redefine all the Alt-keys for emacs (worse than above probably)
>     4) Use the Esc-key meta sequence and get the Alt-key sequence back
>         for Windows menus
>
> Something else?
>
> What do those of you who use MS Windows habitually and love Emacs do
> or recommend that you have seen work for someone?
>
> And if you know of a ready made solution please let me know.  (Please
> note that I am NOT talking about basic CUA functionality as that is
> working just fine.)
>
>     4) Find another lead-in (a la F10) for the menu keys
>
>

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Bruce Ingalls]

Javier Oviedo wrote:
> I was given the function below from someone on this newsgroup. I bind this
> function to M-` (Alt-`) and then type the letter of the particular menu item
> to bring that up....arrow keys also work. I hope this is helpful.
> 
> M-` F  ==> File
> M-` E  ==> Edit
> ...
> 
> ;;; Emulate ALT+
> (defun jbr-w32-simulate-Alt-tap ()
>   (interactive)
>   (w32-send-sys-command 61696))
> ;;;

Nice code! I tried to bind it as follows, but could not get it to work:

(defun edit-menu ()
   (interactive)
   (w32-send-sys-command 61696)
   (insert "e")
)

(global-set-key [(meta e)] 'edit-menu)

I also tried (process-send-string nil "e") but nil is not the right process.
I'd also have to figure out how to send a cursor down.
It would also be nice to port this code to Linux.


 >>Obviously Alt-F File, Alt-H Help, etc., conflict with
 >>other Meta key sequences.

So I just make this a M-x customize option.

Note: XEmacs sometimes supports alt- menu key bindings

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Peter Lee]

>>>> Herb Martin writes:

    Herb> What do those of you who use MS Windows habitually and love
    Herb> Emacs do or recommend that you have seen work for someone?

I personally just never use the menu.  Everything up there can be done
with a chord or M-x command.  I would get rid of it altogether if I
could figure out how to turn it off globally.

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Peter Lee]

>>>> Peter Lee writes:

    Peter> I would get rid of it altogether if I could figure out how
    Peter> to turn it off globally.

escreen was making me think menu-bar-mode wasn't global.  Setting
(menu-bar-mode -1) before I create my screens works fine.

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[danlee]

>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Lee <pete_lee@swbell.net> writes:

    >>>>> Peter Lee writes:
    Peter> I would get rid of it altogether if I could figure out how
    Peter> to turn it off globally.

    Peter> escreen was making me think menu-bar-mode wasn't global.
    Peter> Setting (menu-bar-mode -1) before I create my screens works
    Peter> fine.

Yeah.  That  line has been in  my .emacs since Emacs20  (when it first
came with  that space-wasting  menu bar).  Since  Emacs21, I  have one
more line:

        (tool-bar-mode -1)

:)

-- 
Lee Sau Dan                     李守敦(Big5)                    ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ) 

E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Kai Großjohann]

"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:

> Obviously Alt-F File, Alt-H Help, etc., conflict with
> other Meta key sequences.
>
> How have others solved this issue (beside just adapting
> as I miss my Alt-F Save file etc.)

I suggested on emacs-devel to change the behavior of Emacs as
follows:  Pressing Alt, then hitting f, then releasing Alt, should
behave as it does now -- it should invoke M-f aka forward-word.  But
pressing Alt, then releasing Alt, and *then* hitting f should invoke
the menu bar.

Maybe that might make you happy?

The only problem is that you will need to write the code...
-- 
Two cafe au lait please, but without milk.

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Jeffery B. Rancier]

kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai Großjohann) writes:

I simply bind:

,----
| (defun jbr-w32-simulate-Alt-tap ()
|   (interactive)
|   (w32-send-sys-command 61696))
`----

to Control-tab, a sequence I never use.

(global-set-key [C-tab] 'jbr-w32-simulate-Alt-tap)

> "Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:
>
>> Obviously Alt-F File, Alt-H Help, etc., conflict with
>> other Meta key sequences.
>>
>> How have others solved this issue (beside just adapting
>> as I miss my Alt-F Save file etc.)
>
> I suggested on emacs-devel to change the behavior of Emacs as
> follows:  Pressing Alt, then hitting f, then releasing Alt, should
> behave as it does now -- it should invoke M-f aka forward-word.  But
> pressing Alt, then releasing Alt, and *then* hitting f should invoke
> the menu bar.
>
> Maybe that might make you happy?
>
> The only problem is that you will need to write the code...
> -- 
> Two cafe au lait please, but without milk.

-- 
Thanks,
Jeff

,----
| Jeffery B. Rancier
| 
| Softechnics
| a METTLER TOLEDO company
`----

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Peter Lee]

>>>> Kai Großjohann writes:

    Kai> I suggested on emacs-devel to change the behavior of Emacs as
    Kai> follows: Pressing Alt, then hitting f, then releasing Alt,
    Kai> should behave as it does now -- it should invoke M-f aka
    Kai> forward-word.  But pressing Alt, then releasing Alt, and
    Kai> *then* hitting f should invoke the menu bar.

Would be a good thing for those that prefer the menu... just make it
an option so I can disable it.  My thumbs rest on the meta keys and if
I hit them and changed my mind about something and continued typing I
wouldn't want it jumping around in a menu.

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

> Would be a good thing for those that prefer the menu... just make it
> an option so I can disable it.  My thumbs rest on the meta keys and if
> I hit them and changed my mind about something and continued typing I
> wouldn't want it jumping around in a menu.

It would be a nice option to CUA.el

Can it be coded at the Elisp level or must it be compiled
in?

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Kai Großjohann]

"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:

> Can it be coded at the Elisp level or must it be compiled
> in?

I haven't looked at the code, but I believe that the new Alt behavior
needs to be done on the C level.

While the new Alt behavior would be good for Windows users, I wonder
what users of other OSes do?  I think it's also becoming common with
modern X11 applications that Alt-X invokes the menu bar entry X.  But
I think for X11 apps, it's hold-down-Alt-while-pressing-X instead of
the Windows way.

Any ideas?
-- 
Two cafe au lait please, but without milk.

lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

> I haven't looked at the code, but I believe that the new Alt behavior
> needs to be done on the C level.

Rats!  Of course C itself is no problem but that usually means
it takes longer to find and fix properly plus the effort to integrate
it with new versions increases dramatically.

> While the new Alt behavior would be good for Windows users, I wonder
> what users of other OSes do?  I think it's also becoming common with
> modern X11 applications that Alt-X invokes the menu bar entry X.  But
> I think for X11 apps, it's hold-down-Alt-while-pressing-X instead of
> the Windows way.

I think the suggestion -- and I agreed -- was to make it configurable.

Even some Windows users may not want it even though that is what
every other windows program (practically) does.

Alt then Key is the same as Alt-Key for pulling down menus.


> Any ideas?
> -- 
> Two cafe au lait please, but without milk.

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Kai Großjohann]

"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:

>> While the new Alt behavior would be good for Windows users, I wonder
>> what users of other OSes do?  I think it's also becoming common with
>> modern X11 applications that Alt-X invokes the menu bar entry X.  But
>> I think for X11 apps, it's hold-down-Alt-while-pressing-X instead of
>> the Windows way.
>
> I think the suggestion -- and I agreed -- was to make it configurable.

Well, that allows non-Windows users to turn the feature off.  But
that means they're not better off than now, where the feature is also
off (because it doesn't exist).

My question was how to make life better for non-Windows users?

I realize it's a toughie, so it's more a theoretical thing...
-- 
Two cafe au lait please, but without milk.

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

> Well, that allows non-Windows users to turn the feature off.  But
> that means they're not better off than now, where the feature is also
> off (because it doesn't exist).
>
> My question was how to make life better for non-Windows users?
> I realize it's a toughie, so it's more a theoretical thing...

Well, the Alt release MENU key is useful IF you want it
so those that choose it might find themselves much better
off.  I really miss it -- F10 is soft of out of the way and
certainly not embedded in my fingertips yet.

Now, I need to figure out how to DO that.  But not tonight
or before Wednesday for that matter....

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

How about this for Alt-release-menuKey:

On alt-down-key set a flag that says 'no-menu';
but if no key is pressed, clear the flag or set 'alt-menu'
instead.  Then on Alt-up, look at flag and use that
code we saw before to activate the menu.

Do we have KeyDown/Keyup control?
Can I get to Meta-key easily enough (I see a bunch of
"hook" functions) to clear/set the flag?

I can program, I even can use lisp, but I don't know the
local Emacs geography well enough to find these entry
points yet.

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Kai Großjohann]

"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:

> On alt-down-key set a flag that says 'no-menu';
> but if no key is pressed, clear the flag or set 'alt-menu'
> instead.  Then on Alt-up, look at flag and use that
> code we saw before to activate the menu.

Yes, something like this.  In src/xterm.c there is a function
handle_one_xevent which seems to be the right place to start.  There,
you get KeyPress and KeyRelease events which you can intercept.

That would be the X11 case, though.

I guess that means that src/w32term.c is the right file.  But looking
I find src/w32inevt.c which skips key-up events.
-- 
Two cafe au lait please, but without milk.

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

Turns out it is built-in.

(setq w32-pass-alt-to-system t)  ;; tap alt for menus --Key menu letter

(I posted this in another thread when I found it.)

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Kai Großjohann]

"Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:

> Turns out it is built-in.
>
> (setq w32-pass-alt-to-system t)  ;; tap alt for menus --Key menu letter
>
> (I posted this in another thread when I found it.)

I don't have windows.  Does this mean that hitting Alt then releasing
Alt then hitting a key such as F allows you to access the menu bar,
but pressing and holding Alt while hitting F will access the normal
forward-word binding on M-f?

Cool.
-- 
Two cafe au lait please, but without milk.

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

> I don't have windows.  Does this mean that hitting Alt then releasing
> Alt then hitting a key such as F allows you to access the menu bar,
> but pressing and holding Alt while hitting F will access the normal
> forward-word binding on M-f?
>
> Cool.

Yes.  Very cool.  And build-in the whole time I was
looking to add it.  <grin>

Re: lRe: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Bruce Ingalls]

Kai Großjohann wrote:
> "Herb Martin" <news@LearnQuick.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Turns out it is built-in.
>>
>>(setq w32-pass-alt-to-system t)  ;; tap alt for menus --Key menu letter
>>
>>(I posted this in another thread when I found it.)
> 
> 
> I don't have windows.  Does this mean that hitting Alt then releasing
> Alt then hitting a key such as F allows you to access the menu bar,
> but pressing and holding Alt while hitting F will access the normal
> forward-word binding on M-f?

It would be nice to add this feature to other OSes, such as Linux, for 
consistency, if feasible.

Re: MS Windows "Alt-Menu" support

[Herb Martin]

> I suggested on emacs-devel to change the behavior of Emacs as
> follows:  Pressing Alt, then hitting f, then releasing Alt, should
> behave as it does now -- it should invoke M-f aka forward-word.  But
> pressing Alt, then releasing Alt, and *then* hitting f should invoke
> the menu bar.
>
> Maybe that might make you happy?

I think it is the best compromise.
(The is the nicest newsgroup I have seen in a while -- everyone
tries to help instead of explaining why I "don't want to do this.")
Thanks folks.

Actually it is a really good solution and where I was headed on
my own -- technically that is the actual behavior in other Windows
programs.

Most people never notice this behavior since they "hold Alt" but
either way works.  So, if Emacs modifies this (on Windows at
least) then we can re-train our hands to work the same way in
all other Windows programs Alt then key

BTW, Alt then Alt should counteract -- one activates the menu,
second Alt deactivates back to the Window.