From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: describe-mode "some-mode"? Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 00:27:53 +0200 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <87zjekz446.fsf@debian.uxu> References: <87bnrc1lkz.fsf@yun.yagibdah.de> <988b6e41-62ed-4d33-abf1-804ddcedef59@default> <87egw7z8ca.fsf@yun.yagibdah.de> <87fvgmk5ux.fsf@debian.uxu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1409524224 9841 80.91.229.3 (31 Aug 2014 22:30:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 22:30:24 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 01 00:30:19 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XODdZ-0004ps-NG for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 00:30:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51228 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XODdZ-0004b6-7A for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 18:30:17 -0400 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!goblin3!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 115 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: P0uMB9BthHuWo8+BJXB4Mw.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:MXsda2J4Iml5mWlFXw9xWHDlwTk= Mail-Copies-To: never Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:207270 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:99547 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: >> Why isn't such a helpful feature itself vanilla? > > There are lots of helpful features that are not in > vanilla Emacs. Yes, which is good. But I believe many should be part of vanilla Emacs, especially those that do things that can be considered atomic or very general. Best example I can think of, and one I have mentioned many times on this list, is the describe-variable-short here [1]. It echoes the variable's value in the echo area. Simple as that. But there are many, many examples I've come across that are super simple, very atomic and general but nevertheless seemingly nowhere to be found and Google don't show any either. Probably so easy that most people just write it. And after finding nothing, that is what I do as well! > The choice is up to the Emacs maintainers. Yes, of course. > (And one person's helpful feature is can be another's > PITA.) Only if it gets in the way! If it doesn't, you are free to use whatever features you like. And: Features are good. A bicycle repair shop has all the tools of the trade. Tools that aren't used frequently (but still, sometimes) are put on hooks on the wall. They don't bother anyone but when they are needed, they are right there. > No, they don't - see my first message. (It has nothing > to do with `message-mode'.) That's what I used to test. > The first one does not try to include minor-mode > info. That's easily added if you want it. I don't have an opinion if they should be included - probably not, if this is to describe the major mode. I just thought the functions were identical. > The point was to show that all of this is already > available, even if not in the form of a ready-made > command. The function `documentation' that you were > looking for, is used here, for instance. Yeah, well, in a way everything is always available with programming but now I talk in the sense "instantly" available, i.e., the existence of such a command. > As is typically the case, the elements of what is > needed to cobble together such a "feature" (command) > are in the Emacs code. E.g., just look at the > definition of `describe-mode'. Yes, I know, I have myself done such thing hundreds of times. Some of those times it has been called for, but many times it is to my mind features that are not specific to me but should be there for everyone. Next time I come across such a situation, I'll report it to this list and hopefully someone can tell me if such a feature exists, if it exists somewhere else (if so, how to look for it), and if no to both questions, where I should publish my solution for the next guy around. Right now, this discussion is a bit hollow because I don't have such an example. [Read on, I remembered several writing this.] > It often happens that a given user wants a simple > command to do XYZ, while other users don't feel such > a need. If a user wants XYZ, and there is already X, Y, and Z, I don't think XYZ should be added, unless that's the only use case for X, Y, and Z. But if the user want W, and W isn't related to the user's taste or personality - it is just a simple unit of computation - then it should be added. There is one `degrees-to-radians' in float-sup.el. But it is a macro, not a function. I like it a function. That is super-simple for me to do. But I still think there should be such a function in vanilla Emacs. Is it? If not, where should I look for it? If I don't find it, where should I publish it if I write it? Here is another example. (defun yank-pop-back (&optional arg) (interactive "*p") (yank-pop (if arg (* arg -1) -1)) ) > And core Emacs features change over time too - usually > for the better. Yes, of course. [1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/help.el -- underground experts united