From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Philip K." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Repurpose one key and reserve it for third-party packages Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:23:23 +0100 Message-ID: <87zh098lo4.fsf@posteo.net> References: <7ef75c33936136eb3a20@heytings.org> <8735y56naf.fsf@posteo.net> <8ed9b43502ae9a36b057@heytings.org> <87tuqk6d9d.fsf@posteo.net> <3966473cc1ab9f104724@heytings.org> <87o8gr1oom.fsf@posteo.net> <87lfbubthl.fsf@posteo.net> <87tuqia845.fsf@posteo.net> <87pn16a1xn.fsf@posteo.net> <87lfbu9q5x.fsf@posteo.net> <329d68a5ed6d1194f3c0@heytings.org> <87czx5a947.fsf@posteo.net> <329d68a5ed1656b4427e@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32656"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 12 14:23:54 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAYQM-0008Ms-3k for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:23:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53340 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAYQL-0006Am-6d for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 08:23:53 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41404) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAYPx-0006Ad-U2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 08:23:30 -0500 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:54717) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAYPv-0000zI-DX for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 08:23:29 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E071F16005F for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:23:24 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1613136204; bh=OPwiAGEuesFou0sPl/pVUai7EKbMevyvjxVM3r2ROtI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=dE6rS3CjC83Qi5YLvw7Z6LLUqRge1wDmnfkuLVmplN1cd9YMwB9wuQ8r0uCCN+/CH oZJZxTZn8ZCGQLP/jAkJ3oBY6JgiABj2hP6VpEWDQSErCox9djeQ1nVzny4wn280+G TmrGQDPRt0D04QWIqMfjcei1j+UnPE4sW+s3PyJ0OggLdR82tGGBKL7OAuy18eZs/S gmG5Vt9iw8ELuJ+n0WIQb3yNDj2xd1LBta5aW4JsIlfTpVpO25ihx87Iq+G6S4ZUMU II0xFgrAvIJQ+iUdSn671Bab5ROdOXePlbsgtMbfCbhaBMYrrOfirYQo9G+1kqzC3n E0dfOe8CbqNFA== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4DcZ241ccLz9rxB; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:23:24 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <329d68a5ed1656b4427e@heytings.org> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:59:15 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127850 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gregory Heytings writes: >> Well none of these should so it, with the possible exception of >> activating, that I'll mention again below. But I still think that >> the distinction is important, if only because it is real. I recently=20 >> realized there would be another problem with this approach, as you >> also mentioned that global modes should activate themselves on >> installation, specifically naming Ivy, the completing-read >> framework. But what if someone decides to install Helm? Will these >> two modes now interfere, possibly breaking everything, or is it >> Helm's responsibility to deactivate Ivy. If so, does every >> completion framework have to know about every other one? > > That question and the problems you raise are orthogonal to the problem > at hand. I did not say that the distinction isn't important in > general, only that it isn't relevant for the problem that the proposal > attempts to solve. > > I have no opinion about whether it is better for packages to install > global bindings at installation time, at loading time or at activation=20 > time. At first sight it seems to me that all three could make sense, > depending on the package. I do think that the problems are relevant, because they show that activation at install- or load-time are bad style. The only real choice is activation-time, but that won't work for examples like Magit, since they are not activated using modes. I'm not sure how I'd feel about a magit-global-mode... The only real solution that I see is something along the lines of what I recommended: Packages suggest customizations, and package-install may either ignore, ask for confirmation or accept them by default, if there are no problems with what is suggested (eg. collisions). This avoids all of the issues I have mentioned, will make it easier for newcomers without annoying existing users, at minimal expense to package maintainers, while providing information that can even be used by other third-party packages (e.g. use-package can use the suggestions to automatically build a configuration block). =2D-=20 Philip K. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCAAdFiEEbW+YL3e0aNnYosjIGB9bla4wszYFAmAmgUsACgkQGB9bla4w szYYgwwAoV1FjXHpfv+y3a1/kfr9aorgGfrczdLHQuQLaJw3sDq676zXx0+ZpLz8 CaEcjV6lvKW7qdNtvsyogxj3BvWMSVqXz8LXPmnkVumESjvNTGlEl7GOGAUXTHDO eGuwJYsbk5YnjBOA82pa2pLwd9JbozzFOxWV33YZx2VF2REfNOxZT6yTi5s6Mqoj DnxM9Z7Wp/fkTa5Cr3SGjI9g+OvURVhdCnHC/gSzZUOWkwrhRqVLSD5pxflLjSv2 JlnIeC1zmBoSvNew/Gd+ziO9l/36qOMnMQZcoxbXfi1K0fIQJ7fYZX6uLbUuNitZ 1u18kxQ9EVsVYoJuDwuDcJEaDcCiW4cc5k7Tyt07Ln6yOabRY9cknj0mBaiMVkgq 9//U0V/J9bPaEEoMvoLt1BEvOEfkjQMRMOWhWa7HF4E+Qf27P2Y9itTUL9ngSHJk VIDi3egwzHCLUXSCTjekLnP+0FjltncoS5pzbpBOB9UCqGxawaTFUf4vtLHdrLCu 8HBDXU3+ =eYIH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--