From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rasmus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: "like other editors" [ Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:27:44 +0100 Message-ID: <87wrclvpsf.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87litcvtu2.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20111003093334.0bf5d988@kuru.homelinux.net> <4E89B613.9060305@mousecar.com> <87d3eej7fl.fsf@foolinux.dyndns.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1317669959 22600 80.91.229.12 (3 Oct 2011 19:25:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:25:59 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 03 21:25:55 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RAo99-0006zK-PL for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:25:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35081 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAo99-0005i1-3g for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 15:25:51 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59564) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAo94-0005hm-Ie for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 15:25:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAo92-00069N-Dw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 15:25:46 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:49792) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAo91-00068D-LX for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 15:25:44 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RAo90-0006sf-Ho for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:25:42 +0200 Original-Received: from client-86-25-186-12.bsh-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net ([86.25.186.12]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:25:42 +0200 Original-Received: from rasmus by client-86-25-186-12.bsh-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:25:42 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 56 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: client-86-25-186-12.bsh-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwCAAAAAByaaZbAAAAAmJLR0QA/4ePzL8AAAAJcEhZ cwAAAEgAAABIAEbJaz4AAAFiSURBVEjHnZbBkYAwCEUZ+qEZOqEVuqGK3xCHPUQNie4OWW6OeUrg 8xOi48glMJ4BIDMzY3v/DcBERA1dwIWZmVmiB8S1nlmiBSg/oR0AMgGJBuBcAMcZwN74Q5ymtOwB nSrZBKzXOJ3rewBsZGXoainDzTx+ER+WiPmcAODbeyI+jF/m4YmREsIdf+1hBWAqzKLRBfRRVg+w 0vgOUKViHWCROxqAngJ2CtSUtAOADzd9XNaETpvqdTpNzqSxiS8QM+AUSzhFBCJwrfrvPMBNx0ju IzrsP0wtMOfh8nfFbQKjKLcJXGUSvwEvdQblLLyOskqxHSJ6zg9m1i8j0+KcSUSo6oq3VcaupbqA 7W3Gr3nYgd3u9RR4zQPqJ3xLCV/z4HXB+1CsGXgSFfmy+Nex6+UHo3E3IT4aF9vBfjdKcUsDriJi Ma8OKiLz6hAmIuoo84CIcRvZLyegTCRwvc7zy88POjTfO2tyoxoAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Cancel-Lock: sha1:GKcybpEgOkHOC/iUKyavzB8rEAY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:82427 Archived-At: Ian Zimmerman writes: > With Emacs, this may be true (I sure hope it is, because I sense the > proposal with go through). But in general, when a package or program > decides to "embrace" we hard core users face a sad choice: retrain our > fingers to the Windows way (and yes, that _is_ what it is, if you trace > it to the source), or "customise back" and give up any new features, > because they are usually not compatible with the old interface. It > happens again and again, and I'm sick of it. But in general Emacs exhibit a degree of conservatism. The hard part is choosing the optimal degree of conservatism. With Emacs I don't see development in branches; but the general concern is valid. > Emacs has been sort of like last bastion, and if it falls I give up > computing as a passion and approach it strictly for the money. > Seriously. There are also imitators of Emacs. For example I belive one can choose Emacs bindings in GTK applications. Abiword supports Emacs bindings for sure. For Firefox the keysnail extension is absolutely wonderful. Emacs works. > Richard> Always try to remember the hassles you had when embracing > Richard> emacs. Only then can you judge more dispassionately. > > I do remember that time (around 1995). I came from Windows too, and the > initial difficulties were totally worth it. I am sure everyone on this list agrees. Complex software such as Emacs is hard. Should we `dumb it down' to make it more accessible? I do not think so, but choosing sane defaults is surely important. (I think deleting a highlighted region by default is sane). > Emacs is different because it is first and foremost a programmer's > editor. > [...] > People who normally edit general text and only occassionally drop into > highly structured text or code are better served by a simpler editor, > IMO. I disagree. Generally Emacs is a lisp machine. This enables it to be used for all kinds of general solutions. For you programming is the specific solution that you value the most. For me, I value being able to edit plain text in a coherent environment, whether this plain text is to be understood as `email', `org', `tex' or whatever. Second, I value the possibility of integrating other process into my lisp machine, specifically software such as R and Python. In this sense it also becomes a programer's tool for me, but the objective is not programming. Emacs is a specific solution to programming for some people, but programming is not Emacs. –Rasmus -- Sent from my Emacs