C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Barman Brakjoller]

>From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):

 "You can also move the cursor with the arrow keys, if your terminal
has
 arrow keys.  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for three
 reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second, once
 you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these
Control
 characters is faster than typing the arrow keys (because you do not
 have to move your hands away from touch-typing position).  Third,
once
 you form the habit of using these Control character commands, you can
 easily learn to use other advanced cursor motion commands as well."

Is it worth it? I'm using Emacs on w32 and Linux and are quite happy
with my arrow keys, but the argument above about not having to move
away from the main part of the keyboard sounds logical.

I would like to know about you other guys and gals experiences.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Noufal Ibrahim]

brakjoller@hotmail.com (Barman Brakjoller) writes:

[...]

> Is it worth it? I'm using Emacs on w32 and Linux and are quite happy
> with my arrow keys, but the argument above about not having to move
> away from the main part of the keyboard sounds logical.

[...]

Once you use any set of keys long enough with a program, they'll become
automatic and you won't actually think about them anymore. 

It makes sense to choose a set of keys that's quick and convenient so
that you'll get used to something good. Using F9,F10,F11,F2 to move
around would work too once you get used to it but it's intrinsically
slower. In that respect, I'd reccommed using the emacs default
bindings. I find them very convenient and quick. 

However, a lot of other apps use the cursor keys to move around so the
inconsistency might get annoying. 

Just my 0.2$. 

-- 
~noufal 

It's hard to drive at the limit, but it's harder to know where the limits are.
		-- Stirling Moss

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Kastrup]

brakjoller@hotmail.com (Barman Brakjoller) writes:

> From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):
> 
>  "You can also move the cursor with the arrow keys, if your terminal
> has arrow keys.  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for
> three reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second,
> once you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing
> these Control characters is faster than typing the arrow keys
> (because you do not have to move your hands away from touch-typing
> position).  Third, once you form the habit of using these Control
> character commands, you can easily learn to use other advanced
> cursor motion commands as well."
> 
> Is it worth it? I'm using Emacs on w32 and Linux and are quite happy
> with my arrow keys, but the argument above about not having to move
> away from the main part of the keyboard sounds logical.
> 
> I would like to know about you other guys and gals experiences.

The contortions one has to go through in order to switch from one
direction of movement to another make this quite unergonomic, and you
have the control key locking down another finger at the same time.
Remember those keys for remote connections or other opportunities
where the arrow keys are fscked up, but I'd not mind them beyond of
that.

Contrast that to vi, where the keyboard bindings for movement are
simply _the_ thing to use.

Is it mere coincidence that several major Emacs programmers (RMS, Ben
Wing) have been hampered by RSI over long times?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Arjan Bos]

Barman Brakjoller wrote:

> From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):
> 
>  "You can also move the cursor with the arrow keys, if your terminal
> has
>  arrow keys.  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for three
>  reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second, once
>  you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these
> Control
>  characters is faster than typing the arrow keys (because you do not
>  have to move your hands away from touch-typing position).  Third,
> once
>  you form the habit of using these Control character commands, you can
>  easily learn to use other advanced cursor motion commands as well."
> 
> Is it worth it? I'm using Emacs on w32 and Linux and are quite happy
> with my arrow keys, but the argument above about not having to move
> away from the main part of the keyboard sounds logical.
> 
> I would like to know about you other guys and gals experiences.

I'm using both. For example when I want to delete all characters of a 
certain column I just go C-d C-n which is quit fast. To transfer a line 
to a few lines above, I go C-a C-k C-k C-p C-p C-p C-y.
In both examples I continue to hold down the CTRL key with my right-hand 
pink.

But when I want to identify a small region I'd like to do TAB 
Cursor-down TAB Cursor-down, etc. [1]

Arjan

[1] I know I can identify a region, but this way I get more satisfaction 
by actually seeing what happens.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Stefan Monnier]

>  you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these Control
>  characters is faster than typing the arrow keys (because you do not
>  have to move your hands away from touch-typing position).  Third,

Note that faster is not always better.
After all, if you care about speed, you clearly shouldn't use qwerty.


        Stefan

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Jim Ottaway]

>>>>> Barman Brakjoller <brakjoller@hotmail.com> writes:

> From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):
>  "You can also move the cursor with the arrow keys, if your terminal
> has
>  arrow keys.  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for three
>  reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second, once
>  you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these
> Control
>  characters is faster than typing the arrow keys (because you do not
>  have to move your hands away from touch-typing position).  Third,
> once
>  you form the habit of using these Control character commands, you can
>  easily learn to use other advanced cursor motion commands as well."

> Is it worth it? I'm using Emacs on w32 and Linux and are quite happy
> with my arrow keys, but the argument above about not having to move
> away from the main part of the keyboard sounds logical.

> I would like to know about you other guys and gals experiences.

After using the cursor control keys for a while, I realised that it
would be better to use the default control keys, so I bound all the
cursor keys to produce an annoying error message.  I managed to train
myself to use the control keys in this way, and I still use them now,
several years later; they are *much* more efficient.  

Regards,

Jim Ottaway

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Jay Belanger]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Note that faster is not always better.
> After all, if you care about speed, you clearly shouldn't use qwerty.

While I agree that faster isn't always better, are you saying that
something else (Dvorak?) is faster but qwerty is better?
What would make qwerty better, then?
Also, I'm not sure that Dvorak is faster than qwerty, there seems to
be some debate about it.  (Or maybe you had something else in mind.)

Jay

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Kevin Rodgers]

Barman Brakjoller wrote:

> From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):
> 
>  "You can also move the cursor with the arrow keys, if your terminal
> has
>  arrow keys.  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for three
>  reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second, once
>  you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these
> Control
>  characters is faster than typing the arrow keys (because you do not
>  have to move your hands away from touch-typing position).  Third,
> once
>  you form the habit of using these Control character commands, you can
>  easily learn to use other advanced cursor motion commands as well."
> 
> Is it worth it? I'm using Emacs on w32 and Linux and are quite happy
> with my arrow keys, but the argument above about not having to move
> away from the main part of the keyboard sounds logical.
> 
> I would like to know about you other guys and gals experiences.

For me the third point is the most important: the consistency between
the Control-modified, Meta-modified, and Control-Meta-modified keys
makes it easy to learn the advanced commands and avoid repetitive C-key
commands when 1 M-key or C-M-key will do.  And this applies to
deletion/killing commands as well as motion commands.

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Barry Margolin]

In article <3f7ac211$0$34892$1b62eedf@news.wanadoo.nl>,
Arjan Bos  <Arjan.Bos@ISeeYou.nl> wrote:
>I'm using both. For example when I want to delete all characters of a 
>certain column I just go C-d C-n which is quit fast. To transfer a line 
>to a few lines above, I go C-a C-k C-k C-p C-p C-p C-y.
>In both examples I continue to hold down the CTRL key with my right-hand 
>pink.
>
>But when I want to identify a small region I'd like to do TAB 
>Cursor-down TAB Cursor-down, etc. [1]

I find the sequence C-n C-i C-n C-i ... pretty easy, much like the C-d C-n
sequence you mentioned above.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Level(3), Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Daniel B.]

Barman Brakjoller wrote:
> 
> >From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):
> 
>  "...  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for three
>  reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second, once
>  you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these
> Control
>  characters is faster than typing the arrow keys ..."
> 
> Is it worth it? 

Yes, but reconfigure your keyboard so that the Caps Lock key functions 
as the control key.  (I'm assuming you're using a PC-style keyboard.)

Emacs control-character sequences were designed when the standard place 
for the control key was just to the left of where the A key is (in the 
US layout).

Unfortunately, IBM put the Caps Lock key to the left of the A key, and
pushed the Control key down into a corner where it's hard to reach and
is extremely inconvenient for many Emacs control characters.

If you reconfigure your keyboard, you'll understand how Emacs control 
characters were meant to be used.  If you don't, you'll wonder how on
earth anyone can think control-character sequences are faster.


If you're running Emacs on Linux under X11 (e.g., GNOME, KDE), you can
reconfigure your control and caps-lock keys in X11's configuration file.

If you're running Emacs on MS Windows, see NTEmac's instructions; they
mention several ways to swap the control and caps-lock keys.





Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Daniel B.]

David Kastrup wrote:
> 
> brakjoller@hotmail.com (Barman Brakjoller) writes:
> 
> ...
> 
> The contortions one has to go through in order to switch from one
> direction of movement to another make this quite unergonomic, 

Only if you switch frequently from the convenient (on-keyboard control
characters) to the farther-away arrows keys.

Or were you talking about up vs. down, left vs. right, etc.?

If you think there's a contortion between control-b and control-f (back
and forward (left and right)), see below. 

If you think there's a contortion between control-n and control-p (next
and previous (down and up)), then what's going on with you?


> and you
> have the control key locking down another finger at the same time.

Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not where
IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)?  That will make a big 
difference.

Typing Control-A is supposed to be as easy as putting your left little 
(leftmost) finger to the left of the A key and putting your left ring 
(second leftmost) finger on the A key.


> ...
> 
> Contrast that to vi, where the keyboard bindings for movement are
> simply _the_ thing to use.

What you mean by _the_ thing to use?  

Modern version of vi accept arrow keys as well as traditional vi movement 
keys, don't they?

And what contrast is there?  Emacs takes main-keyboard keystrokes as
well as arrow keys, and so does vi now.



> Is it mere coincidence that several major Emacs programmers (RMS, Ben
> Wing) have been hampered by RSI over long times?

I'd say so.



Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Kastrup]

"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
> > 
> > brakjoller@hotmail.com (Barman Brakjoller) writes:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > The contortions one has to go through in order to switch from one
> > direction of movement to another make this quite unergonomic, 
> 
> If you think there's a contortion between control-b and control-f
> (back and forward (left and right)), see below.

I have to hold down control with the pinky, and reach b and f with
two fingers that are in quite different bends and directions.  Three
fingers being bent out of their rest position and in need of pressing
coordinated make for RSI.

> If you think there's a contortion between control-n and control-p
> (next and previous (down and up)), then what's going on with you?

> > and you have the control key locking down another finger at the
> > same time.
> 
> Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not
> where IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)?  That will make a
> big difference.

I will still need to use my pinky for it.

> Typing Control-A is supposed to be as easy as putting your left little 
> (leftmost) finger to the left of the A key and putting your left ring 
> (second leftmost) finger on the A key.

We are not talking Ctrl-A, and besides, little and ring finger share
the same sheath for their sinews.  Since you have to move them
independently, (CTRL down A down A up CTRL up), you have to let them
work against each other.

> > Contrast that to vi, where the keyboard bindings for movement are
> > simply _the_ thing to use.
> 
> What you mean by _the_ thing to use?

No vi user with a modicum of experience will use cursor keys instead
of hjkl-Navigation.

> Modern version of vi accept arrow keys as well as traditional vi
> movement keys, don't they?

Right.  For the same of beginners, mostly.  Experienced vi users will
use hjkl, whereas most experiences Emacs users will escape to using
cursor keys when available.

> And what contrast is there?  Emacs takes main-keyboard keystrokes as
> well as arrow keys, and so does vi now.

vi movement commands on the main keyboard are single-key, not
control-combinations.  And they are all located on different fingers
of a single hand in rest position (shifted to the left by 1 key in
contrast to the 10-finger typist rest position, the only slight
awkwardness).

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Matthias Meulien]

"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> wrote:

> (...) If you reconfigure your keyboard, you'll understand how Emacs
> control characters were meant to be used. If you don't, you'll
> wonder how on earth anyone can think control-character sequences are
> faster.

If you don't, you'll have two control keys, and two meta keys (one for
each hand) : less hand movement...
-- 
Matthias

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Arthur Davis]

Also, you could try catching the catching the control keys with the
outside of each hand and the Alt keys with each thumb.  This works for
me and leaves all my fingers free to reach other keys as usual without
much strain.

Arthur

Daniel B. writes:
 > Barman Brakjoller wrote:
 > > 
 > > >From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):
 > > 
 > >  "...  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for three
 > >  reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second, once
 > >  you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these
 > > Control
 > >  characters is faster than typing the arrow keys ..."
 > > 
 > > Is it worth it? 
 > 
 > Yes, but reconfigure your keyboard so that the Caps Lock key functions 
 > as the control key.  (I'm assuming you're using a PC-style keyboard.)
 > 
 > Emacs control-character sequences were designed when the standard place 
 > for the control key was just to the left of where the A key is (in the 
 > US layout).
 > 
 > Unfortunately, IBM put the Caps Lock key to the left of the A key, and
 > pushed the Control key down into a corner where it's hard to reach and
 > is extremely inconvenient for many Emacs control characters.
 > 
 > If you reconfigure your keyboard, you'll understand how Emacs control 
 > characters were meant to be used.  If you don't, you'll wonder how on
 > earth anyone can think control-character sequences are faster.
 > 
 > 
 > If you're running Emacs on Linux under X11 (e.g., GNOME, KDE), you can
 > reconfigure your control and caps-lock keys in X11's configuration file.
 > 
 > If you're running Emacs on MS Windows, see NTEmac's instructions; they
 > mention several ways to swap the control and caps-lock keys.
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > Daniel
 > -- 
 > Daniel Barclay
 > dsb@smart.net
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Help-gnu-emacs mailing list
 > Help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
 > http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Arjan Bos]

Barry Margolin wrote:

> In article <3f7ac211$0$34892$1b62eedf@news.wanadoo.nl>,
> Arjan Bos  <Arjan.Bos@ISeeYou.nl> wrote:
> 
>>I'm using both. For example when I want to delete all characters of a 
>>certain column I just go C-d C-n which is quit fast. To transfer a line 
>>to a few lines above, I go C-a C-k C-k C-p C-p C-p C-y.
>>In both examples I continue to hold down the CTRL key with my right-hand 
>>pink.
>>
>>But when I want to identify a small region I'd like to do TAB 
>>Cursor-down TAB Cursor-down, etc. [1]
> 
> 
> I find the sequence C-n C-i C-n C-i ... pretty easy, much like the C-d C-n
> sequence you mentioned above.
> 
C-i? Ha, you live and learn! Thanks!

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Hans-Christoph Wirth]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>  
> > Typing Control-A is supposed to be as easy as putting your left little 
> > (leftmost) finger to the left of the A key and putting your left ring 
> > (second leftmost) finger on the A key.
>  
>  We are not talking Ctrl-A, and besides, little and ring finger share
>  the same sheath for their sinews.  Since you have to move them
>  independently, (CTRL down A down A up CTRL up), you have to let them
>  work against each other.

Playing the organ helps to overcome this handicap :-)

hcw

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Daniel B.]

Matthias Meulien wrote:
> 
> "Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> wrote:
> 
> > (...) If you reconfigure your keyboard, you'll understand how Emacs
> > control characters were meant to be used. If you don't, you'll
> > wonder how on earth anyone can think control-character sequences are
> > faster.
> 
> If you don't, you'll have two control keys, and two meta keys (one for
> each hand) : less hand movement...

Less hand movement than what?  

If you reconfigure the keyboard by changing Caps Lock to be a control
key, you have _three_ control keys.  Except for typing capitalized 
stretches of text, how does leaving the keyboard unreconfigured result
in less hand movement?

Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Daniel B.]

David Kastrup wrote:
> ...
> I have to hold down control with the pinky, and reach b and f with
> two fingers that are in quite different bends and directions.  Three
> fingers being bent out of their rest position and in need of pressing
> coordinated make for RSI.

So don't take a rest position and key-to-finger assignments that come
from generic typing and use them when doing a lot of control-character
commands on a computer.

(For typing a sequence of control-character-based commands, shift your 
left hand left one key (for left pinky over control key).  That reduces
leftward/backward reaching with the pinky, trading it for easier 
rightward/forward reaching with the index finger, for control-R/-F/-V.  
For left-index-finger keys that are now harder to reach, use your right 
hand.

Control-F becomes left pinky down on control key, left index finger 
mildly reaching right to F.  Control-B becomes same left pinky situation 
with the right index finger on B.)

(Yes, I can touch-type, and use the standard rest/home position and finger 
for typing most text.)


> > Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not
> > where IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)?  That will make a
> > big difference.
> 
> I will still need to use my pinky for it.

True, but what's your point?  (What about still needing to use your 
pinky means that it won't make a big difference?)

Having to move your left hand left one key is a lot easer than moving 
your left pinky even further left and down _two_ rows.  It's also
probably easier than moving your right pinky way right and down.


> > Typing Control-A is supposed to be as easy as putting your left little
> > (leftmost) finger to the left of the A key and putting your left ring
> > (second leftmost) finger on the A key.
> 
> We are not talking Ctrl-A, ...

Since when?

We're talking about Emacs control-character sequences you might not have
experienced correctly (with the control key available to the left of the 
A).

Besides, control-A is also a good example because it shows how standard 
hand and finger positions from regular typing don't necessarily apply.


> and besides, little and ring finger share
> the same sheath for their sinews.  Since you have to move them
> independently, (CTRL down A down A up CTRL up), you have to let them
> work against each other.

I doubt that (working against either other).  You're not pressing down 
with one finger and pulling up with the other.  You're pressing one and
just not pressing the other.  (Besides, where are the "pressing" sinews 
relative to the "pulling" sinews?)

My sequence is:
1. start pressing left pinky for Control-down
2. press left ring finger for A-down
3. release left right finger for A-up
4. releast left pinky for Control-up

Actually, Control-A is more a single ballistic motion:  Move both fingers
down together, with the left pinky somewhat ahead of the ring finger, and
then release.  


> > > Contrast that to vi, where the keyboard bindings for movement are
> > > simply _the_ thing to use.
> >
> > What you mean by _the_ thing to use?
> 
> No vi user with a modicum of experience will use cursor keys instead
> of hjkl-Navigation.

Note that the same has surely been said of Emacs.


> > Modern version of vi accept arrow keys as well as traditional vi
> > movement keys, don't they?
> 
> Right.  For the same of beginners, mostly.  Experienced vi users will
> use hjkl, whereas most experiences Emacs users will escape to using
> cursor keys when available.

I strongly doubt that last clause.  If it actually is true, it's probably
because they didn't try control-character sequences with the control key 
in the right place.


> > And what contrast is there?  Emacs takes main-keyboard keystrokes as
> > well as arrow keys, and so does vi now.
> 
> vi movement commands on the main keyboard are single-key, not
> control-combinations.  

Yes, but remember that many control characters take only a single key-
stroke to enter:  When doing several control-character commands (movement 
_and_ other things) in a row, one tends to press and hold the control key, 
type _several_ other keys, and release the control key.  True, that's a 
little more than a single, isolated H/J/K/L, but it's not a control-down 
and control-up for each control character.  And comparing all the things
one can do with a single control character vs. just four cursor movements 
leaves things out.  (No, I don't want this to degenerate into an 
Emacs-vs.-vi argument.)

> And they are all located on different fingers
> of a single hand in rest position (shifted to the left by 1 key in
> contrast to the 10-finger typist rest position, the only slight
> awkwardness).

Left one key for vi's basic 4-way movement commands, left one key for
Emacs control-character commands--that still doesn't sound like much
contrast.


Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Sven Utcke]

"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:

> Barman Brakjoller wrote:
> > 
> > >From the Emacs tutorial (C-h t):
> > 
> >  "...  We recommend learning C-b, C-f, C-n and C-p for three
> >  reasons.  First, they work on all kinds of terminals.  Second, once
> >  you gain practice at using Emacs, you will find that typing these
> > Control
> >  characters is faster than typing the arrow keys ..."
> > 
> > Is it worth it? 
> 
> Yes, but reconfigure your keyboard so that the Caps Lock key functions 
> as the control key.  (I'm assuming you're using a PC-style keyboard.)
> 
> Emacs control-character sequences were designed when the standard place 
> for the control key was just to the left of where the A key is (in the 
> US layout).

Well, considering where C-y is on an american keyboard (it's fine on a
German one, incidentially), makes one wonder if Emacs control
sequences where ever designed for anything but mnemonic value --- Most
of them certainly are in strange places.

I for one use the arrow keys where available, even after using Emacs
for 10 years, and while rarely using the mouse...

Sven
-- 
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Barry Margolin]

In article <vd0u16mtpjt.fsf@kogs31.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>,
Sven Utcke  <utcke+news@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:
>Well, considering where C-y is on an american keyboard (it's fine on a
>German one, incidentially), makes one wonder if Emacs control
>sequences where ever designed for anything but mnemonic value --- Most
>of them certainly are in strange places.

Almost all the key bindings that have been around since the early days
(late 70's) were chosen solely for mnemonic value.  I don't think
ergonomics was given much consideration at all (I don't recall hearing
about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome or RSI until several years later).

>I for one use the arrow keys where available, even after using Emacs
>for 10 years, and while rarely using the mouse...

One thing I find that I think helps quite a bit is heavy use of C-u.  When
I want to go up or down by a bunch of lines, I type C-u C-p/C-n or C-u C-u
C-p/C-n rather than typing C-p/C-n many times.  C-u C-p C-u C-p ... is
pretty comfortable to type; my left pinky sits on the Control key, and I
just rock back and forth between my right index and ring fingers.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Level(3), Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Gareth Rees]

One way to avoid repetitive sequences of control keys is to use the many
editing features of Emacs.  Don't type lots of C-f, use prefix arguments
(C-9 C-9 C-f moves forward 99 characters) or use M-C-f to move forward
by sexp or M-} to move forward by paragraph.  Or C-s foo RET to go to
the next occurrence of foo.

Or make a macro and then C-u 152 C-x e to execute the macro 152 times.

For example, here are some ways to accomplish things without
repetitions:

Arjan Bos wrote:
> I'm using both. For example when I want to delete all characters of a
> certain column I just go C-d C-n which is quite fast.

Select the rectangle, then C-x r k.

> To transfer a line to a few lines above, I go C-a C-k C-k C-p C-p C-p C-y.

Go to the line after the one you want to move, then C-- C-3 C-x C-t.

> But when I want to identify a small region I'd like to do TAB 
> Cursor-down TAB Cursor-down, etc.

Select the region, then M-C-\.

-- 
Gareth Rees

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Hans-Christoph Wirth]

Barry Margolin <barry.margolin@level3.com> wrote:
>  In article <vd0u16mtpjt.fsf@kogs31.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>,
>  Sven Utcke  <utcke+news@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:
> >Well, considering where C-y is on an american keyboard (it's fine on a
> >German one, incidentially), makes one wonder if Emacs control
> >sequences where ever designed for anything but mnemonic value --- Most
> >of them certainly are in strange places.
>  
>  Almost all the key bindings that have been around since the early days
>  (late 70's) were chosen solely for mnemonic value.  I don't think
>  ergonomics was given much consideration at all (I don't recall hearing
>  about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome or RSI until several years later).

I'd bet that vi's ZZ command (that is shift z z) is chosen because it is 
very easy to type.  (If you switch to the qwerty layout as I always do.)

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Steuber]

"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:

> Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not where
> IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)?  That will make a big 
> difference.

Correct location?  I'm going to have to fetch my spade and dig up the
old Dasher D2000 terminal I first learned to type on.  Perhaps it has
the control key where my caps lock (called alpha lock on the D2000) is
now.

I have one control key on this keyboard.

-- 
One Emacs to rule them all.  One Emacs to find them,
One Emacs to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

Classified as a solid class B shooter in NRA Rifle Silhouette

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Steuber]

Hans-Christoph Wirth <hcw@despammed.com> writes:

> Playing the organ helps to overcome this handicap :-)

Yes, lets introduce three rows of foot peddles.  Let's do that.  Let's
do exactly that!

-- 
One Emacs to rule them all.  One Emacs to find them,
One Emacs to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

Class B NRA Rifle Silhouette shooter

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Steuber]

Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu> writes:

> While I agree that faster isn't always better, are you saying that
> something else (Dvorak?) is faster but qwerty is better?
> What would make qwerty better, then?
> Also, I'm not sure that Dvorak is faster than qwerty, there seems to
> be some debate about it.  (Or maybe you had something else in mind.)

I'm still working on telepathically controlling the machine.  It is
surprisingly difficult.

-- 
One Emacs to rule them all.  One Emacs to find them,
One Emacs to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

Class B NRA Rifle Silhouette shooter

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Stefan Monnier]

> I'm still working on telepathically controlling the machine.  It is
> surprisingly difficult.

Huh?  It should work without even thinking about it.
Are you sure you did the M-x telepathy-server ?


        Stefan

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Kastrup]

Hans-Christoph Wirth <hcw@despammed.com> writes:

> Barry Margolin <barry.margolin@level3.com> wrote:
> >  In article <vd0u16mtpjt.fsf@kogs31.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>,
> >  Sven Utcke  <utcke+news@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:
> > >Well, considering where C-y is on an american keyboard (it's fine on a
> > >German one, incidentially), makes one wonder if Emacs control
> > >sequences where ever designed for anything but mnemonic value --- Most
> > >of them certainly are in strange places.
> >  
> >  Almost all the key bindings that have been around since the early
> >  days (late 70's) were chosen solely for mnemonic value.  I don't
> >  think ergonomics was given much consideration at all (I don't
> >  recall hearing about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome or RSI until several
> >  years later).
> 
> I'd bet that vi's ZZ command (that is shift z z) is chosen because
> it is very easy to type.  (If you switch to the qwerty layout as I
> always do.)

Uh, vi's hjkl commands certainly have also been chosen because of
that.  But we were not talking about vi here.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Kastrup]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> > I'm still working on telepathically controlling the machine.  It is
> > surprisingly difficult.
> 
> Huh?  It should work without even thinking about it.
> Are you sure you did the M-x telepathy-server ?

Still thinking about it.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Oliver Scholz]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> I'm still working on telepathically controlling the machine.  It is
>> surprisingly difficult.
>
> Huh?  It should work without even thinking about it.
> Are you sure you did the M-x telepathy-server ?
[...]

As for the telepathy-UI new in the CVS version, I am not sure whether
it is worth the trouble. Last time I tried it, I found myself
constantly misthinking. It only works for me if I concentrate hard
enough not to think about anything “wrong”. But as soon as I let my
thoughts a little bit wander ... And even if I concentrate very hard,
I don't have the necessary fine control yet. In general I have to use
undo most of the time.

I think this is a general problem with this sort of UI. It only works
right, when you learn to use your editor as some sort of
extra-limb. Like a very complex hand, for example. Not that this would
be a bad idea, but---well, it took a very long time for all of us to
learn to use our hands. And I am not sure whether I am not simply too
old to learn to use a new one.

So IMO the usual UI via the keyboard is much superior. The thought
“How was that in the manual again?”, for instance, almost instantly
makes my fingers hitting `C-h i'. Other key combos are similar. This
is as close as we can come to an telepathic interface without the
overhead to learn to use an extra limb.

    Oliver
-- 
17 Vendémiaire an 212 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Oliver Scholz <alkibiades@gmx.de>
> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:48:42 +0200
> 
> As for the telepathy-UI new in the CVS version, I am not sure whether
> it is worth the trouble. Last time I tried it, I found myself
> constantly misthinking. It only works for me if I concentrate hard
> enough not to think about anything ``wrong''. But as soon as I let my
> thoughts a little bit wander ... And even if I concentrate very hard,
> I don't have the necessary fine control yet. In general I have to use
> undo most of the time.

RTFM: "M-x electric-telepathy-mode RET" solves this one.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Kastrup]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@elta.co.il> writes:

> > From: Oliver Scholz <alkibiades@gmx.de>
> > Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
> > Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:48:42 +0200
> > 
> > As for the telepathy-UI new in the CVS version, I am not sure
> > whether it is worth the trouble. Last time I tried it, I found
> > myself constantly misthinking. It only works for me if I
> > concentrate hard enough not to think about anything ``wrong''. But
> > as soon as I let my thoughts a little bit wander ... And even if I
> > concentrate very hard, I don't have the necessary fine control
> > yet. In general I have to use undo most of the time.
> 
> RTFM: "M-x electric-telepathy-mode RET" solves this one.

I found the amount of profanity this happened to add to Emails and
Usenet posts of mine (cf Google Groups) to be more than what my
correspondents were willing to appreciate on a long-term base.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Barry Margolin]

In article <x54qykuirr.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>, David Kastrup  <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>Eli Zaretskii <eliz@elta.co.il> writes:
>
>> > From: Oliver Scholz <alkibiades@gmx.de>
>> > Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
>> > Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:48:42 +0200
>> > 
>> > As for the telepathy-UI new in the CVS version, I am not sure
>> > whether it is worth the trouble. Last time I tried it, I found
>> > myself constantly misthinking. It only works for me if I
>> > concentrate hard enough not to think about anything ``wrong''. But
>> > as soon as I let my thoughts a little bit wander ... And even if I
>> > concentrate very hard, I don't have the necessary fine control
>> > yet. In general I have to use undo most of the time.
>> 
>> RTFM: "M-x electric-telepathy-mode RET" solves this one.
>
>I found the amount of profanity this happened to add to Emails and
>Usenet posts of mine (cf Google Groups) to be more than what my
>correspondents were willing to appreciate on a long-term base.

I've heard it claimed that the average man has sexual thoughts every six
seconds.  What fun the world will be if we ever get direct neural
interfaces really working....

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Level(3), Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Jim Janney]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

> No vi user with a modicum of experience will use cursor keys instead
> of hjkl-Navigation.

The hjkl navigation is still the best thing about vi: right there where
I want them, on the home row under the right hand.  On the other hand,
it was probably the hours I spent playing rogue that made them seem like
second nature :-)

The worst thing about using vi was trying to figure out where the ESC
key was this time...

-- 
Jim Janney

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Per Abrahamsen]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Uh, vi's hjkl commands certainly have also been chosen because of
> that. 

They have a mnemonic value too, C-h being backspace and C-j being
linefeed, both would move the printer head the same way the vi key
moved the cursor.  I don't think vertical tab or form feed are
relevant to the corresponding vi keys though, but knowing the meaning
of the two first, it is easy to infer (from position) the two later.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Daniel B.]

Sven Utcke wrote:
> 
> "Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:
> 
> >...
> > Yes, but reconfigure your keyboard so that the Caps Lock key functions
> > as the control key.  (I'm assuming you're using a PC-style keyboard.)
> >
> > Emacs control-character sequences were designed when the standard place
> > for the control key was just to the left of where the A key is (in the
> > US layout).
> 
> Well, considering where C-y is on an american keyboard (it's fine on a
> German one, incidentially), makes one wonder if Emacs control
> sequences where ever designed for anything but mnemonic value --- Most
> of them certainly are in strange places.

I didn't say they were designed based on the location of the shifted
character's key. 

I just said that were designed when all Control keys where in the
easy-to-reach left-of-A location (and that anyone using the regular
Control keys on a PC-style keyboard would think they're harder to
reach than they actual are with the control key in the right location).


Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Daniel B.]

David Steuber wrote:
> 
> "Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:
> 
> > Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not where
> > IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)?  That will make a big
> > difference.
> 
> Correct location?  I'm going to have to fetch my spade and dig up the
> old Dasher D2000 terminal I first learned to type on.  Perhaps it has
> the control key where my caps lock (called alpha lock on the D2000) is
> now.
> 
> I have one control key on this keyboard.

Where?  On the left like the left Control key on a PC-style keyboard,
or in some other location?

Daniel

-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Daniel B.]

Oliver Scholz wrote:
> 
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> 
> ...
> 
> As for the telepathy-UI new in the CVS version, I am not sure whether
> it is worth the trouble. Last time I tried it, I found myself
> constantly misthinking. It only works for me if I concentrate hard
> enough not to think about anything â??wrongâ??. But as soon as I let my
> thoughts a little bit wander ... And even if I concentrate very hard,
> I don't have the necessary fine control yet. In general I have to use
> undo most of the time.

On the slightly serious side, that relates to something I've always
wondered:   

When someday we can read brainwaves and thoughts enough to control 
external devices, how hard will it be to distinguish between thoughts 
about doing something and the decision to actually do it?

On keyboards, or driving a car, you can have impulses and partial 
movement that happens but doesn't affect anything as long as it doesn't
exceed some threshold (e.g., the distance between your finger and
the key, or the level of pressure at which the key or gas pedal
activates).  We probably learn where that threshold is, and make sure
accepted impulses exceed the threshold and make sure unconfirmed 
impulses stay below that threshold.

I wonder if reading thoughts would work similarly.  Might it be that
if you think in passing about typing a space, nothing happens, but if
you really dwell on it (e.g., fantasize about it), a space would get
entered?



> I think this is a general problem with this sort of UI. It only works
> right, when you learn to use your editor as some sort of
> extra-limb. 

Actually, I already feel that Emacs _is_ my connection (like a limb) 
between my brain (and what I want to do with the text) and the text 
on the screen.

When the Control key isn't in the right place, or when I have to use
a an editor like Notepad, I feel like I'm editing with gloves on.
When I have to edit with vi (at which I'm very slow since I barely know 
it), it's almost like boxing gloves.


Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up? - OT now

[Daniel B.]

Barry Margolin wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> I've heard it claimed that the average man has sexual thoughts every six
> seconds.  What fun the world will be if we ever get direct neural
> interfaces really working....

But how on earth would they measure something like that accurately?

Telling someone to press a button every time they had a particular
kind of thought would skew things by making them think about what
they were supposed to be monitoring.

I wonder if some kind of random-time sampling works.


Daniel
-- 
Daniel Barclay
dsb@smart.net

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Barry Margolin]

In article <1g2hbzl.smhiyq1ytl1wiN%jjanney@xmission.com>,
Jim Janney <jjanney@xmission.com> wrote:
>The hjkl navigation is still the best thing about vi: right there where
>I want them, on the home row under the right hand.

Except for the fact that they require you to shift your hand one key to the
left from normal home position.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Level(3), Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up? - OT now

[Björn Lindström]

"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:

> But how on earth would they measure something like that accurately?

Scanning for activity in certain parts of the brain should do it. Not
accurately, perhaps, but probably as accurate as it gets.

-- 
Björn Lindström <bkhl@elektrubadur.se>
http://bkhl.elektrubadur.se/

Download the new *Elektrubadur* demo from http://elektrubadur.se/

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Steuber]

"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:

> > I have one control key on this keyboard.
> 
> Where?  On the left like the left Control key on a PC-style keyboard,
> or in some other location?

Bottom row, second from the left.

-- 
One Emacs to rule them all.  One Emacs to find them,
One Emacs to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

Class B NRA Rifle Silhouette shooter
There are no typos in this post.  My spelling realy is that bad.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[lawrence mitchell]

Barry Margolin wrote:

[...]

> I've heard it claimed that the average man has sexual thoughts every six
> seconds.  What fun the world will be if we ever get direct neural
> interfaces really working....

Hmm, I was going to reply to this, but, ... gooood sigmonster.
-- 
lawrence mitchell <wence@gmx.li>
Whoever said that men think about sex every 15 seconds was grossly misusing the
word "think".
   -- David Chapman in afp.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Kai Grossjohann]

"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:

> If you reconfigure the keyboard by changing Caps Lock to be a control
> key, you have _three_ control keys.  Except for typing capitalized 
> stretches of text, how does leaving the keyboard unreconfigured result
> in less hand movement?

How do people configure their keyboard?

At work, I have a 105 key keyboard (with qwerty and Indic printed on
it, neat).  I selected US layout.  This means that the key between Z
and the left shift key (that's the 105th key) and the key to the left
of 1 do the same thing.

So I changed the key to the left of 1 to do like escape.
I changed escape to do like caps lock.
I changed caps lock to do like ctrl.

So now I have three ctrl keys, a caps lock key available (though at a
weird location), and escape is in an easy to reach spot.

I've heard of people changing caps lock (to the left of A) to do
like escape.

Any other nifty tricks?

Kai

PS: On a US keyboard, missing the 105th key, I changed the right
    Windows key to produce ` and ~.

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[Kai Grossjohann]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> vi movement commands on the main keyboard are single-key, not
> control-combinations.

That's what I thought when I started to use viper.  And then I
discovered how often I use Ctrl-F, Ctrl-B, Ctrl-Y and Ctrl-E in vi.
(Not to mention Ctrl-W in input mode.)

:-/

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[lawrence mitchell]

Kai Grossjohann wrote:

[...]

> So now I have three ctrl keys, a caps lock key available (though at a
> weird location), and escape is in an easy to reach spot.

> I've heard of people changing caps lock (to the left of A) to do
> like escape.

> Any other nifty tricks?

Well, I found that I was overusing my left little finger for
reaching control far too much.  So I unbound it, and now left
control is a second shift key.  This means that I now type
nearly all control key combinations with two hands.  Avoiding
stretching too much.  Also, S-tab is now more easily reachable.
I can move down and to the left to use it.  I usually bind it to
some form of completion.

-- 
lawrence mitchell <wence@gmx.li>

Re: C-f, C-b, C-n and C-p or right, left, down, up?

[David Combs]

In article <87d6d8c36a.fsf@verizon.net>,
David Steuber  <david@david-steuber.com> wrote:
>"Daniel B." <dsb@smart.net> writes:
>
>> Have you experienced the control key in its correct location (not where
>> IBM-PC-style keyboards put control keys)?  That will make a big 
>> difference.
>
>Correct location?  I'm going to have to fetch my spade and dig up the
>old Dasher D2000 terminal I first learned to type on.  Perhaps it has
>the control key where my caps lock (called alpha lock on the D2000) is
>now.

Sun's unix-style (I think that's what they call it) has
control key just left of "A" -- just like on good old ASR-33.

It'll probably work just fine on whatever computer you have.

David