From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul R Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs, oldsters, newbiness Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:15:22 +0200 Message-ID: <87tzb26y7p.fsf@gmail.com> References: <251d6b72-b760-411b-8c35-83a7788e2491@u75g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <68deb805-c16f-48ec-96a1-5dd8fd7e5e48@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <56aa1c42-303b-4150-8d96-9159487244e2@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com> <7343b66f-7262-466c-8975-9774dce22d88@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <7bddb878-9f4c-4140-827c-83cd29c96e5f@l77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> <372adbcc-d97b-453c-8ddc-3a7f1abb0b23@l62g2000hse.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1224846997 18919 80.91.229.12 (24 Oct 2008 11:16:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:16:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Alex Schroeder Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 24 13:17:38 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KtKfh-00043G-Ll for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:17:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37931 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KtKeb-0006zu-Q8 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:16:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KtKdb-0006mN-WA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:15:28 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KtKda-0006lG-7q for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:15:27 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=49736 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KtKdZ-0006l8-V1 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:15:26 -0400 Original-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]:44722) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KtKdZ-00024Y-IM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:15:25 -0400 Original-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id l26so956242fgb.30 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:15:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:to:cc:subject:references:from :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=KRZz6TkZsLo1+OKBwL0Z0mLH1u1LLVovwB2BbaK+qpg=; b=oDOApH1sBZ+tAYjCUMBE/KStbovylPJasHBrmsIvPC0EidktBP127kkKvMAdDJT1BV UNKQXVBAnrdZ5fb0tvspECyGx01Vr7jlVTqCz1SfV3zILI9Fp9zkyhff3Jff/eTG816A 0GFz3swMYM2z78c1rubqZVOaAyapbRMP1FraM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=to:cc:subject:references:from:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; b=dF9SklWaU5YX/laYr9gDSyQKtxCvuCyx9iEijhyan7B+g1wHWtK5mSyqZ1iobkwqWI Qzmbd92ujnmkb0+Gib1Vf0AfF2syPeQLFQpVoh7t7rOV/I0b1noZf/Pk/UdDnsYbuNlM kZiD/2LATjoEVGfnGICdl2/EfAHdAa1QMK6j8= Original-Received: by 10.181.57.7 with SMTP id j7mr705465bkk.22.1224846924616; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ubuT42 (pdc35-1-82-242-132-111.fbx.proxad.net [82.242.132.111]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d6sm310067fga.2.2008.10.24.04.15.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:15:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <372adbcc-d97b-453c-8ddc-3a7f1abb0b23@l62g2000hse.googlegroups.com> (Alex Schroeder's message of "Fri\, 24 Oct 2008 03\:14\:21 -0700 \(PDT\)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59125 Archived-At: Hello Alex, Alex> You are right. If you look around Emacs Wiki, you'll notice that Alex> there's a set of pages reachable from the SiteMap that is geared Alex> towards newbies. It tells them how the wiki works, how to Alex> navigate, how to search, how to learn Emacs, and so on. Most of Alex> this area is the work of Drew Adams. It is this kind of effort Alex> that is required. Thank you, Drew Adams! Yes, thank you Drew for constantly trying to look through newbies eyes. It often gives good results. Alex> My point is that looking at the Emcs Wiki on its own might be Alex> short- selling it. It often works as a text resource for other Alex> services -- web search, IRC bots, and maybe mailing lists and Alex> newsgroups. Yes, the content in EmacsWiki is very valuable. Yet, I undertand there is room for improvement for finding documentation, and putting in in shape to ease learning. But the most we talk about it, the more I think it would be best as a separate project, working collaboratively with emacswiki, picking some precious informations and putting them in shape to provide information in a more comprehensive shape for external readers. Alex> It has been a long time since I posted a lot on Alex> gnu.emacs.help... :) and I'm glad to read your posts. Alex> Oh and one last thing: Some defaults were in fact changed in Alex> Emacs 23. I was confused. But I'm willing to make that sacrifice Alex> if it attracts some new users to Emacs. Let's hope we're on the Alex> right track. Yes, some. Obviously emacs 23 will have some improvements in this area, but it is hardly enough to qualify emacs as a friendly tool for beginners. Also, I would bet you can revert your copy of emacs to the old beloved behaviour in a matter of seconds, just because you know what you want and you know how to set it up. That is why I don't see the point of preserving defaults to suit experienced users. Defaults, really, must strictly stick to what a *new* user expects, or at least to *common* usability guidelines. -- Paul