desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Samuel Wales]

I have noticed more people using boxquote and similar ways of setting
off code.  This makes it pretty and makes it stand out, both of which
are good things.

However, most prefix every line.  For example, boxquote by default uses "|".

While an experienced user can figure out rectangle commands or write a
command to unpack the quote, new users and users who can't type much
might skip using the code to avoid having to do that.  And a very new
user could actually stick the whole thing in .emacs and wonder why it
doesn't work.  It adds to the burden of fixing a problem or meeting a
need in emacs without providing much benefit.  Even a few keystrokes
can do that.

Perhaps quotes of code, in all packages like boxquote, could by
default get fancy only on the lines precediing and following.

What do you think?

-- 
For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly
causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by grossly
corrupting science.
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm

Re: desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Matthew Lundin]

Hi Samuel,

"Samuel Wales" <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> I have noticed more people using boxquote and similar ways of setting
> off code.  This makes it pretty and makes it stand out, both of which
> are good things.
>
> However, most prefix every line.  For example, boxquote by default uses "|".
>
> While an experienced user can figure out rectangle commands or write a
> command to unpack the quote, new users and users who can't type much
> might skip using the code to avoid having to do that.  And a very new
> user could actually stick the whole thing in .emacs and wonder why it
> doesn't work.  It adds to the burden of fixing a problem or meeting a
> need in emacs without providing much benefit.  Even a few keystrokes
> can do that.
>
> Perhaps quotes of code, in all packages like boxquote, could by
> default get fancy only on the lines precediing and following.
>
> What do you think?

I hadn't thought of that. I started using boxquote because I was
looking for an easier way to set off code. But if it's a nuisance or a
problem to new users, then I'd be happy to modify the variable
boxquote-side accordingly.

Something like this perhaps? 

,----
   (setq boxquote-side "   ")
`----

What do others think? Is this readable enough? 

The only downside is that the cursor has to be on the beginning or
ending line for commands such as boxquote-unbox or boxquote-yank or
boxquote-narrow-to-boxquote to work.

Best, 
Matt

>
> -- 
> For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly
> causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by grossly
> corrupting science.
> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
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> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode


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Re: desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Kevin Rodgers]

Samuel Wales wrote:
> I have noticed more people using boxquote and similar ways of setting
> off code.  This makes it pretty and makes it stand out, both of which
> are good things.
> 
> However, most prefix every line.  For example, boxquote by default uses "|".
> 
> While an experienced user can figure out rectangle commands or write a
> command to unpack the quote, new users and users who can't type much
> might skip using the code to avoid having to do that.  And a very new
> user could actually stick the whole thing in .emacs and wonder why it
> doesn't work.  It adds to the burden of fixing a problem or meeting a
> need in emacs without providing much benefit.  Even a few keystrokes
> can do that.
> 
> Perhaps quotes of code, in all packages like boxquote, could by
> default get fancy only on the lines precediing and following.
> 
> What do you think?

,----[ C-h f boxquote-unbox RET ]
| boxquote-unbox is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `boxquote.el'.
| (boxquote-unbox)
|
| Remove the boxquote that contains `point'.
|
| [back]
`----

-- 
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Tassilo Horn]

"Samuel Wales" <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Samuel,

> While an experienced user can figure out rectangle commands or write a
> command to unpack the quote, new users and users who can't type much
> might skip using the code to avoid having to do that.  And a very new
> user could actually stick the whole thing in .emacs and wonder why it
> doesn't work.  It adds to the burden of fixing a problem or meeting a
> need in emacs without providing much benefit.  Even a few keystrokes
> can do that.
>
> Perhaps quotes of code, in all packages like boxquote, could by
> default get fancy only on the lines precediing and following.
>
> What do you think?

I think the best you can do is: Use boxquote for citations of
key/function/variable/info docs, but for code use

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun foo (a b)
  (if (> a b)
      (* a b)
    (foo (foo (- b a) a) (- a b))))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

which is

,----[ C-h k C-c M-m ]
| C-c M-m runs the command message-mark-inserted-region, which is an interactive
| compiled Lisp function in `message.el'.
| 
| It is bound to C-c M-m, <menu-bar> <Message> <Insert Region Marked>.
| 
| (message-mark-inserted-region beg end &optional verbatim)
| 
| Mark some region in the current article with enclosing tags.
| See `message-mark-insert-begin' and `message-mark-insert-end'.
| If verbatim, use slrn style verbatim marks ("#v+" and "#v-").
`----

That's highlighted by gnus (and some other readers), too, and you can
simply copy & paste it somewhere.  It even tells you where to cut! ;-)

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
In an average living room there are 1,242 objects RMS could use to write
an OS, including the room itself.

Re: [Orgmode] desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi Matthew and Samuel,

>> I have noticed more people using boxquote and similar ways of
>> setting off code. This makes it pretty and makes it stand
>> out, both of which are good things.

I agree. Writing an easy-to-read mail is a good thing.


>> However, most prefix every line. For example, boxquote by
>> default uses "|".
>>
>> While an experienced user can figure out rectangle commands
>> or write a command to unpack the quote, new users and users
>> who can't type much might skip using the code to avoid having
>> to do that.
>>
>> Perhaps quotes of code, in all packages like boxquote, could
>> by default get fancy only on the lines precediing and
>> following.
>
> Something like this perhaps?
>
> ,----
>    (setq boxquote-side "   ")
> `----

For me, boxquote is not to use for code. It's great, and I use
it for everything else, but not for code...

For making your code stand out, just use `C-c M-m' or `M-x
message-mark-inserted-region' once you've selected a region on
which to apply the transformation.

It will add "cut here" lines around the block of code, like this:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
for i in `seq 1 10`; do
echo $i;
done
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

If you use Gnus (maybe others as well) for reading this, you
should not see the separator lines, and see the code with a
yellow background.

Others will see the line, which we'll be less nice, but will
provide the same effect of clarity.

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban

Re: [Orgmode] desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:05:41 +0100 Sébastien Vauban <zthjwsqqafhv@spammotel.com> wrote:

> It will add "cut here" lines around the block of code, like this:
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> for i in `seq 1 10`; do
> echo $i;
> done
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> If you use Gnus (maybe others as well) for reading this, you
> should not see the separator lines, and see the code with a
> yellow background.

I do use gnus (5.11), but do see the lines and don't see the yellow
background.  Is there some needed "article washing"?

thanks,
allan

Re: [Orgmode] desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi Allan,

>> It will add "cut here" lines around the block of code, like this:
>>
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>> for i in `seq 1 10`; do
>> echo $i;
>> done
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>>
>> If you use Gnus (maybe others as well) for reading this, you
>> should not see the separator lines, and see the code with a
>> yellow background.
>
> I do use gnus (5.11), but do see the lines and don't see the
> yellow background. Is there some needed "article washing"?

I don't see anything obvious in my config file that would
explain this. I have the impression (maybe wrong) that this is a
standard setting.

Sorry for not being able to help you further on this.

Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban

Re: [Orgmode] desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Jan 20 2009, Sébastien Vauban wrote:

>>> It will add "cut here" lines around the block of code, like this:
>>>
>>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>>> for i in `seq 1 10`; do
>>> echo $i;
>>> done
>>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>>>
>>> If you use Gnus (maybe others as well) for reading this, you
>>> should not see the separator lines, and see the code with a
>>> yellow background.
>>
>> I do use gnus (5.11), but do see the lines and don't see the
>> yellow background. Is there some needed "article washing"?
>
> I don't see anything obvious in my config file that would
> explain this. I have the impression (maybe wrong) that this is a
> standard setting.

It is standard, but you need Gnus 5.13 (i.e. Emacs 23) or No Gnus
(development version).

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: desirability of boxquote-style snippets for helping new users

[Samuel Wales]

On 1/15/09, Kevin Rodgers <kevin.d.rodgers@gmail.com> wrote:
>> However, most prefix every line.  For example, boxquote by default uses
>> "|".
>>
>> While an experienced user can figure out rectangle commands or write a
>> command to unpack the quote, new users and users who can't type much
>> might skip using the code to avoid having to do that.  And a very new
>> user could actually stick the whole thing in .emacs and wonder why it
>> doesn't work.  It adds to the burden of fixing a problem or meeting a
>> need in emacs without providing much benefit.  Even a few keystrokes
>> can do that.
>>
>> Perhaps quotes of code, in all packages like boxquote, could by
>> default get fancy only on the lines precediing and following.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> ,----[ C-h f boxquote-unbox RET ]
> | boxquote-unbox is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `boxquote.el'.
> | (boxquote-unbox)
> |
> | Remove the boxquote that contains `point'.
> |
> | [back]
> `----

thanks for your suggestion.

as i said, i am suggesting that the prefixed lines should never be
prefixed in the first place.  i don't think it adds enough to outweigh
the extra keystrokes, rectangle, boxquote package, etc.  i don't think
all newcomers will know what to do.

imho, above and below quoting is a preferable default convention.
exceptions are few and can be optional.