Re: gnuplot (was: Re: zsh outside of Emacs)

Re: gnuplot (was: Re: zsh outside of Emacs)

[Emanuel Berg]

Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

> You could try asking for it to be included in the
> core it may be possible.

If there are complications, I don't have a problem
with the current state. It is no big deal. If a person
is intelligent enough to find both Emacs and gnuplot
then I have confidence [s]he will be able to use MELPA
to get the mode as well.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: gnuplot (was: Re: zsh outside of Emacs)

[Emanuel Berg]

Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

>> for fast ASCII-only checks. Speaking of gnuplot, I
>> had to to get gnuplot-mode from MELPA - that was
>> super easy, but why isn't such a basic mode
>> included in vanilla Emacs, to offer font lock,
>> indentation, and invocation? For the few of you who
>> don't know gnuplot
>
> Perhaps because the authors haven't copyright
> assigned it to the FSF? The name "gnuplot" is a
> coincidence, the program and it's authors have
> nothing to do with the GNU project. That's not to
> say it's not a great program, it is.

Do you mean gnuplot-mode has a missing/conflicting
license, or gnuplot has? With gnuplot that should be
OK as there are built-in modes for God knows what
technologies that most likely have licenses all over
the place, including none at all.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: gnuplot (was: Re: zsh outside of Emacs)

[Robert Thorpe]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:
...
>
> Do you mean gnuplot-mode has a missing/conflicting
> license, or gnuplot has? With gnuplot that should be
> OK as there are built-in modes for God knows what
> technologies that most likely have licenses all over
> the place, including none at all.

I don't know why it's not included.

Possible reasons:
* The Emacs developers don't think it's important enough.
* It has a non GPL license.
* The Emacs developers can't get copyright assignment for it.

The FSF generally require that Emacs coders assign copyright to them.
Unless it's a small change it's not considered good enough to just use
the GPLv3 license.  As far as I understand it, there are two reasons for
that.  Firstly, it enables them to easily re-license the code.  That
could happen if a legal flaw is found in a license, for example GPLv3
was created to rectify problems with GPLv2.  The other advantage is that
it prevents programmers from being able to relicense their contributions
and request that they're removed.

What sometimes happens is that an elisp package is initially unpopular.
But, the author gathers contributions from many people.  Then the
package becomes popular and people want it in the core or ELPA.  But by
that time the author can't find all the people to contact to ask for
copyright paperwork, or there are so many of them that it isn't
practical.

You could try asking for it to be included in the core it may be
possible.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: zsh outside of Emacs (was: Why do we need a number of different terminal modes in Emacs?)

[Karl Voit]

* Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> wrote:
> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
> ...
>> However, this confirms my habit of using a Terminal emulator, with
>> GNU/screen[1], together with a great set-up of zsh[2].
>
> You can use GNU Screen and Zsh and connect to them using M-x term.  That
> puts them within Emacs, but Screen should make things safe from Emac's
> crashes.

And what advantages would I get?

>> Unfortunately, my GNU/Emacs tends to be very unstable[3] so that I
>> have to kill and re-start it several times a day. I handle this by
>> having a very tight auto-save-interval. Losing all of my open shell
>> sessions would be a disaster.
>
> Have you bisected your init file?

No.

Most issues only appear in my "GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1
(x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.4.2) of 2014-01-01 on gkar,
modified by Debian" and not in my GNU Emacs I use on Windows.

Therefore I have the strong feeling that my Emacs backport for
Debian/Wheezy is the cause for some issues.

-- 
All in all, one of the most disturbing things today is the definitive
fact that the NSA, GCHQ, and many more government organizations are
massively terrorizing the freedom of us and the next generations.
                                                  http://Karl-Voit.at

Re: zsh outside of Emacs (was: Why do we need a number of different terminal modes in Emacs?)

[Robert Thorpe]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> * Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> wrote:
>> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>> ...
>>> However, this confirms my habit of using a Terminal emulator, with
>>> GNU/screen[1], together with a great set-up of zsh[2].
>>
>> You can use GNU Screen and Zsh and connect to them using M-x term.  That
>> puts them within Emacs, but Screen should make things safe from Emac's
>> crashes.
>
> And what advantages would I get?

You get to work inside Emacs and Screen should stop your terminals from
getting hosed when Emacs crashes.

>>> Unfortunately, my GNU/Emacs tends to be very unstable[3] so that I
>>> have to kill and re-start it several times a day. I handle this by
>>> having a very tight auto-save-interval. Losing all of my open shell
>>> sessions would be a disaster.
>>
>> Have you bisected your init file?
>
> No.

I have an MS Windows specific part of my init file and an Ubuntu specific
part.  If you do the same then it could be a bug your Debian specific
part.  It could also be a bug in Debian's site-start code, a lot of that
distro site-start code is old and crufty.

> Most issues only appear in my "GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1
> (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.4.2) of 2014-01-01 on gkar,
> modified by Debian" and not in my GNU Emacs I use on Windows.
>
> Therefore I have the strong feeling that my Emacs backport for
> Debian/Wheezy is the cause for some issues.

What's the 50 in 24.3.50.1?  Is it a number used by Debian to do their
versioning?  Or does it mean you're using an unreleased version of
Emacs?  If it's the latter then that's probably the problem.

If not I'd try a different Emacs build.  I'm using an old version of
XUbuntu with an Emacs from some PPA and it works fine.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: zsh outside of Emacs (was: Why do we need a number of different terminal modes in Emacs?)

[Emanuel Berg]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> Sorry, I meant what advantages do I get compared to
> a separate Terminal emulation running my GNU screen
> sessions?
>
> I don't see much difference between Alt-TAB +
> XOrg-copy&paste and C-x b + Emacs-copy&paste

It is not only a matter of copy and paste back and
forth! If that is your only concern the whole system
is integrated as it is.

No, if you have any data in an Emacs buffer, you can
immediately put all of Emacs to work on that data,
just as you can put all of Emacs to (re)produce it.
And this can be automatized big with no glue in
between.

Now that sounded really advanced but it can be really
down to Earth things. You will experience the benefits
of an integrated interface with common input methods
and documentation/configuration very soon if you
didn't already.

-- 
underground experts united

gnuplot (was: Re: zsh outside of Emacs)

[Emanuel Berg]

(on topic: gnuplot - last paragraph!)

torys.anderson@gmail.com (Tory S. Anderson) writes:

>> It is not only a matter of copy and paste back and
>> forth! If that is your only concern the whole
>> system is integrated as it is. No, if you have any
>> data in an Emacs buffer, you can immediately put
>> all of Emacs to work on that data, just as you can
>> put all of Emacs to (re)produce it. And this can be
>> automatized big with no glue in between. Now that
>> sounded really advanced but it can be really down
>> to Earth things. You will experience the benefits
>> of an integrated interface with common input
>> methods and documentation/configuration very soon
>> if you didn't already.
>
> Emanuel puts it well; that sort of integrated
> interface and the ability to put emacs tools to use
> on my bash output has served me many, many times.

Thanks for the compliment. You know what they say: a
great Useneter always have one last great post left in
his tank...

Yes, integration is one of the top three or four
benefits of Emacs. To me, it is the most enjoyable
with mail/Usenet (Gnus), then the web (Emacs-w3m), and
only then manpages and the shell. But it depends what
you do, of course, where you are the most benefited.

> It's hard for me to go back to a "dumb terminal" (to
> use the term ironically) now...

Indeed, you never want to take a step back from what
you have achieved. And that can be a problem whenever
you cannot decide what to use... (a "problem" as in
frustration)

Uncanny, by the way, your mention of a "dumb
terminal"! Just before I read your post I did a
gnuplot .gpi file and added a 'set terminal dumb' line
for fast ASCII-only checks. Speaking of gnuplot, I had
to to get gnuplot-mode from MELPA - that was super
easy, but why isn't such a basic mode included in
vanilla Emacs, to offer font lock, indentation, and
invocation? For the few of you who don't know gnuplot
this can serve as an introduction [1] - the Makefile
got a bit complicated, but it isn't anything a
computer literate person cannot decipher in zero time.
Gnuplot is great and can be used not just for
techno-techno-science but for writing, journalism, and
plain cool facts just as well. It should definitely be
associated with Emacs from the holster in all ways
possible, is what I think.

[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/hs-linux/docs/report/pics/plot

-- 
underground experts united

Re: gnuplot (was: Re: zsh outside of Emacs)

[Robert Thorpe]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> for fast ASCII-only checks. Speaking of gnuplot, I had
> to to get gnuplot-mode from MELPA - that was super
> easy, but why isn't such a basic mode included in
> vanilla Emacs, to offer font lock, indentation, and
> invocation? For the few of you who don't know gnuplot

Perhaps because the authors haven't copyright assigned it to the FSF?
The name "gnuplot" is a coincidence, the program and it's authors have
nothing to do with the GNU project.  That's not to say it's not a great
program, it is.

BR,
Robert Thorpe