General advice beyond Org

General advice beyond Org

[edgar]

Hello,

_I_ need help. I am in graduate school, and I keep having issues with my 
advisor for my strong inclination to use free software. I am obviously 
not in position to refuse, but she dislikes to have discussions about 
it. She pays a stipend to me every month, and my tuition is waved.

Is anyone here aware of a place where they do computational human 
biomechanics, mechanics, materials or finite elements where I could 
interact with free software? (having github, LaTeX, Python, etc.; avoid 
Micro$oft products, Matlab, Mathematica, etc.). Is there no place where 
one can simply use free software on a daily basis?

It seems from her comments that I am, otherwise, a good researcher. She 
is a nice person, but I fear that this may become an issue in the future 
for me (whether with her or other people).

As a student or junior faculty, how do you go about this? Do you just 
nod and wave your freedom good bye?

Thank you! (I will post this in other fora as well; don't let that to 
discourage you from answering, please).

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Re: General advice beyond Org

[Peter Neilson]

On Thu, 17 May 2018 20:28:22 -0400, <edgar@openmail.cc> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> _I_ need help. I am in graduate school, and I keep having issues with my  
> advisor for my strong inclination to use free software. I am obviously  
> not in position to refuse, but she dislikes to have discussions about  
> it. She pays a stipend to me every month, and my tuition is waved.
>
> Is anyone here aware of a place where they do computational human  
> biomechanics, mechanics, materials or finite elements where I could  
> interact with free software? (having github, LaTeX, Python, etc.; avoid  
> Micro$oft products, Matlab, Mathematica, etc.). Is there no place where  
> one can simply use free software on a daily basis?
>
> It seems from her comments that I am, otherwise, a good researcher. She  
> is a nice person, but I fear that this may become an issue in the future  
> for me (whether with her or other people).
>
> As a student or junior faculty, how do you go about this? Do you just  
> nod and wave your freedom good bye?
>
> Thank you! (I will post this in other fora as well; don't let that to  
> discourage you from answering, please).

What is your field? In some areas of research the foremost software tools  
have been developed on a MS platform and there is no escape unless you go  
and develop your own tools.

Allow me to illustrate from a non-software perspective, in two different  
directions. I happen to own a substantial number of horses, and thus find  
myself employing the services of a farrier. That's the person who trims  
the hooves and fits shoes. My previous farrier, now retired, made some of  
his own tools and avoided using the top, well-known brand, GE. (It's GE  
Forge & Tools, NOT General Electric!) "Too expensive," he said. "Not worth  
all that extra money." My current farrier works three times as fast as the  
other guy, and uses nothing but GE tools. Clearly, he can fit in perhaps  
twice the number of customers a day, and the tools pay for themselves. He  
could make his own, as can anyone who owns a forge, an anvil, and hammers,  
but why bother? He makes perhaps $300 an hour when working on horses, and  
nearly nothing when trying to build tools.

I also get questions from young folks between the ages of 8 and 16 who  
love horses, and want a career working with horses. They hope for a job  
where they will clean stalls and exercise horses, and maybe help with  
training. My suggestion to them is to find a profession such as accounting  
or medicine where they will be able to make enough money to own several  
horses. After a day cleaning stalls and brushing horses at minimum wage or  
less, who wants to saddle up Yet Another Horse and go riding? The  
accountant who can fathom the intricacies of expenses for a Thoroughbred  
race stable will be well rewarded, and may even get invited to ride.

These words are rather far afield from your actual question, but I think  
you do need to reflect carefully on where your interests actually lie.

So back to free software itself. Read, if you have not already done so,  
this article by rms:  
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.en.html . Then  
ponder whether you want your career to follow his delightfully weird  
footsteps, or whether your field requires a totally different approach.  
I'm sure that rms would disagree with me--he has every time I've spoken  
with him--but his is not the only philosophy available.

Re: [O] General advice beyond Org

[Bob Newell]

Aloha,

Sometimes you need to pick your battles.

In a place I once worked at, there were two environments. One was
extremely restrictive and you were only allowed to use specific
products ... so I had to use abominations like Word and Outlook. (In
the other environment, I could do as I wished.) It was otherwise a
good job, and I liked it, so I put up with the rules. It was neither a
battle I could win nor a battle worth fighting.

Was it harder to work without Emacs and the many tools that made me
more productive? Yes. But again, that came with the territory, and I
didn't think it was worth quitting over.

In your case, in grad school, I of course don't know your environment,
or what proprietary tools you're being told to use vs. what FOSS tools
might be available. Certainly things like Scilab, Sage Math, R, etc.
will do a lot, but your needs may be much greater.
If your evaluation (and you need to do a careful evaluation of the
merits and demerits of both your approach and her approach) is that
it's better to go with what your adviser asks, then you should do so.
No, I wouldn't like it either. But I don't think (unlike RMS, perhaps)
that there are show-stopping moral or ethical issues here.

If your evaluation truly tells you that your way is best, then you
need to come up with a plan of action, with alternatives. I'd suggest
that a good enough evaluation could possibly sway your adviser.

Best of luck to you.

Re: General advice beyond Org

[S. Champailler]

Be aware that free software is politcally loaded. It's just not a matter of having the right or best tools, it' sometimes a question of ideal, that is something that is *very* hard to negociate about...

Moreover, if the people you work with use, say Word, it's pretty tough to bring in, say Latex. Because you'll disrupt the organisation of the team.

In the case of emacs, though, things are easier : it's made to work with text files and that is quite compatible with any other proprietary software. You won't affect anybody's job with that.

Here at my job, I don't control any of the software I use (I have to use Oracle, Windows, Skype), but I can choose the software that *I* use for myself. So it's a balance.

Changing other's mind, or methods is super hard, what you experience is just the normal. It'd be nice to know why your advisor rejects free software equivalents (lack of features ? fear of legal battles ? organisational ...)

Stefan


> Le 18 mai 2018 à 02:28, edgar@openmail.cc a écrit :
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> _I_ need help. I am in graduate school, and I keep having issues with my 
> advisor for my strong inclination to use free software. I am obviously 
> not in position to refuse, but she dislikes to have discussions about 
> it. She pays a stipend to me every month, and my tuition is waved.
> 
> Is anyone here aware of a place where they do computational human 
> biomechanics, mechanics, materials or finite elements where I could 
> interact with free software? (having github, LaTeX, Python, etc.; avoid 
> Micro$oft products, Matlab, Mathematica, etc.). Is there no place where 
> one can simply use free software on a daily basis?
> 
> It seems from her comments that I am, otherwise, a good researcher. She 
> is a nice person, but I fear that this may become an issue in the future 
> for me (whether with her or other people).
> 
> As a student or junior faculty, how do you go about this? Do you just 
> nod and wave your freedom good bye?
> 
> Thank you! (I will post this in other fora as well; don't let that to 
> discourage you from answering, please).
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator to keep your email out of the NSA's hands!
> $24.95 ONETIME Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features!  
> 15GB disk! No bandwidth quotas!
> Commercial and Bulk Mail Options!  
>

Re: [O] General advice beyond Org

[tomas]

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On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 04:44:39PM -1000, Bob Newell wrote:
> Aloha,
> 
> Sometimes you need to pick your battles.

While I'd tend to agree with Bob that you might have to choose
a "flexible response", bear in mind that your instructor has
already signalled that she's not willing to cater to your
standpoint.

If you want to change your environment, and you want, because
you'll have to live in it, try to network, to reach out to
others in your position. Being in academia, you'll interact
with many co-researchers in other institutions. Make a habit
of carefully enquiring about their environment.

Cheers & good luck
- -- tomás
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Re: General advice beyond Org

[edgar]

On 2018-05-18 07:12, S. Champailler wrote:
> Be aware that free software is politcally loaded. It's just not a
> matter of having the right or best tools, it' sometimes a question of
> ideal, that is something that is *very* hard to negociate about...
> 
> Moreover, if the people you work with use, say Word, it's pretty tough
> to bring in, say Latex. Because you'll disrupt the organisation of the
> team.
> 
> In the case of emacs, though, things are easier : it's made to work
> with text files and that is quite compatible with any other
> proprietary software. You won't affect anybody's job with that.
> 
> Here at my job, I don't control any of the software I use (I have to
> use Oracle, Windows, Skype), but I can choose the software that *I*
> use for myself. So it's a balance.
> 
> Changing other's mind, or methods is super hard, what you experience
> is just the normal. It'd be nice to know why your advisor rejects free
> software equivalents (lack of features ? fear of legal battles ?
> organisational ...)
> 
> Stefan

Merci, Stefan. I have tried to understand her point, and I can dissect 
it into:

1. She does not see the advantage of having to learn how to use anything 
else. It works well for her, why change and waste time on doing it?

2. She likes and is used to the "features" of the software (today, I 
discovered that one of these is the so-called "track changes"; I swear I 
have tried to introduce her to Git, not that she cares).

3. I think that she is used to the interface.

4. She says (and I have no reason to question) that the whole department 
uses the proprietary software that she uses. It is an imposition to 
others (including her) to ask them to use something different.

It is only when we have to collaborate directly that the issue arises. I 
guess that it's a similar situation as you are having (programming? she 
does not care, I can do whatever I want; publication abstract? she wants 
a DOCX or DOC). What I find unfathomable is that I can produce the 
format that she needs (even with style) with free software (thanks 
community!), but what I perceive as her reluctance to my software (or 
just plain miscommunication) prevents her from informing me or me 
understanding what exactly it is that she considers important. In other 
words, she does not seem to want to deal with it in any way.

I'm sorry, I didn't want to make this very long. I hope that I explained 
myself.

The count goes like this (so that everyone knows that I am listening, 
the count is by far the least important):
- Yield partially (1) :: You will have to work with proprietary software 
in some way, but not always.
- There is no escape (1) :: You will have to work with proprietary 
software

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Re: General advice beyond Org

[tomas]

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On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 09:12:42AM +0200, S. Champailler wrote:
> Be aware that free software is politcally loaded. It's just not a matter of having the right or best tools, it' sometimes a question of ideal, that is something that is *very* hard to negociate about...

Well, because in a way, it *is* political. As the stance to "keep
out politics" at all costs is political too.

> Moreover, if the people you work with use, say Word, it's pretty tough to bring in, say Latex. Because you'll disrupt the organisation of the team.

I've been able to cope with that to some extent by using Org mode
as a "hub" -- I can export as LaTeX for my viewing pleasure and as
(LibreOffice) ODF, which can be converted into Word for other people's
viewing pleasure.

Now a way back from Word to Org would be bliss, but is more thorny...

Now I just try to (help) lobby politicians to drop proprietary
formats. We're 1 against 1000 (perhaps even worse if you count
dollars instead of people), but we're getting better!

> Changing other's mind, or methods is super hard, what you experience is just the normal. It'd be nice to know why your advisor rejects free software equivalents (lack of features ? fear of legal battles ? organisational ...)

This is a very important point, and one without which no change
will be possible: Whenever I try to convince someone to change
her tools I just imagine how I would react if someone tried to
pry my beloved Emacs from my hands.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: General advice beyond Org

[tomas]

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On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:10:08AM +0000, edgar@openmail.cc wrote:
> On 2018-05-18 07:12, S. Champailler wrote:
> >Be aware that free software is politcally loaded [...]

[...]

> I'm sorry, I didn't want to make this very long. I hope that I
> explained myself.

I don't know about the others, but I find this topic extremely
interesting, since it touches many of us. In my concrete example,
I was submerged in a corp for six years and ultimately moved on,
just because of this issue.

And your approach to the topic is even-headed and clear: I'm
able to learn a lot from it, so thanks!

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: General advice beyond Org

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 7:29 AM <edgar@openmail.cc> wrote:

> _I_ need help. I am in graduate school, and I keep having issues with my
> advisor for my strong inclination to use free software. I am obviously
> not in position to refuse, but she dislikes to have discussions about
> it. She pays a stipend to me every month, and my tuition is wa[i]ved.

> Is anyone here aware of a place where they do computational human
> biomechanics, mechanics, materials or finite elements where I could
> interact with free software? (having github, LaTeX, Python, etc.; avoid
> Micro$oft products, Matlab, Mathematica, etc.). Is there no place where
> one can simply use free software on a daily basis?

Are you required to pay for licenses for proprietary software you are asked
to use? Chances are, your school is getting academic discounts, and you get
to use it for no charge.

Your instructors and professors probably have a lot of experience with
those tools. They are understandably reluctant to switch, because the tools
work well enough for them.

Also, as a student, you do not have sufficient influence to convert
everybody at your school to free software.

> As a student or junior faculty, how do you go about this? Do you just
> nod and wave your freedom good bye?

The point of education is to get exposed to many tools, techniques and
workflows. By limiting yourself to free software only, you will miss out.

Be a scout in the proprietary camp. Learn the tools your instructors are
willing to teach. Learn what it takes to achieve the same results with free
software. Learn the difference in workflows and user experience.

You will find something you can do with free software that you don’t know
how to do with proprietary tools. Ask your teachers. They will either point
you at something you missed (and then you can study it); or they will admit
that feature is nice but their tool doesn’t have it (and then you have
demonstrated the merits of free software); or they will say it’s not
important.

You will also likely find more than a few points where non-free software
delivers better UX. Use that knowledge to improve free software so that it
can compete with proprietary software on UX terms, not only on the issue of
freedom.

Re: General advice beyond Org

[S. Champailler]

This is a super wise advice :

>> Be a scout in the proprietary camp. Learn the tools your instructors are
>> willing to teach. Learn what it takes to achieve the same results with free
>> software. Learn the difference in workflows and user experience.

Comparing stuff in scenarios you don't invent yourself is super enlightening. Once you don't define the scenario, all sorts of edge/unexpected situations arise.

For example, if you work with math stuff, I'm sure you'll find interesting differences between computations results (e.g. matlab equations solving versus say Octave).

stF







> Le 18 mai 2018 à 12:54, Yuri Khan <yurivkhan@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 7:29 AM <edgar@openmail.cc> wrote:
> 
> > _I_ need help. I am in graduate school, and I keep having issues with my
> > advisor for my strong inclination to use free software. I am obviously
> > not in position to refuse, but she dislikes to have discussions about
> > it. She pays a stipend to me every month, and my tuition is wa[i]ved.
> 
> > Is anyone here aware of a place where they do computational human
> > biomechanics, mechanics, materials or finite elements where I could
> > interact with free software? (having github, LaTeX, Python, etc.; avoid
> > Micro$oft products, Matlab, Mathematica, etc.). Is there no place where
> > one can simply use free software on a daily basis?
> 
> Are you required to pay for licenses for proprietary software you are asked
> to use? Chances are, your school is getting academic discounts, and you get
> to use it for no charge.
> 
> Your instructors and professors probably have a lot of experience with
> those tools. They are understandably reluctant to switch, because the tools
> work well enough for them.
> 
> Also, as a student, you do not have sufficient influence to convert
> everybody at your school to free software.
> 
> > As a student or junior faculty, how do you go about this? Do you just
> > nod and wave your freedom good bye?
> 
> The point of education is to get exposed to many tools, techniques and
> workflows. By limiting yourself to free software only, you will miss out.
> 
> Be a scout in the proprietary camp. Learn the tools your instructors are
> willing to teach. Learn what it takes to achieve the same results with free
> software. Learn the difference in workflows and user experience.
> 
> You will find something you can do with free software that you don’t know
> how to do with proprietary tools. Ask your teachers. They will either point
> you at something you missed (and then you can study it); or they will admit
> that feature is nice but their tool doesn’t have it (and then you have
> demonstrated the merits of free software); or they will say it’s not
> important.
> 
> You will also likely find more than a few points where non-free software
> delivers better UX. Use that knowledge to improve free software so that it
> can compete with proprietary software on UX terms, not only on the issue of
> freedom.
>

Re: General advice beyond Org

[Kevin Buchs]

As a student, you simply need to go along with your supervisor's
recommendations. You are not in a position to dictate the terms. Using the
proprietary tools will not hurt you, unless you need to buy your own. If it
were the case that you needed to buy your own, then I would ask your
supervisor for another solution.

Even as a Junior faculty member, you may be in close collaboration with
other faculty and should follow the consensus. That is how you work with
other people effectively. You don't keep asserting that your solution is
better. When you are calling the shots, you can use the tools you wish.

So, you need to adjust your attitude. It may be that you are presenting the
issue of principles - I prefer free, you prefer proprietary, but that is
not really the true issue. Maybe you don't know the proprietary tools and
don't want to learn them or feel you can't learn them. Choice of tools you
use is no reason to switch graduate programs.

This is entirely a matter of getting along with other people, not being
selfish, etc. These are life skills we are talking about.

Kevin Buchs

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 7:28 PM, <edgar@openmail.cc> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> _I_ need help. I am in graduate school, and I keep having issues with my
> advisor for my strong inclination to use free software. I am obviously not
> in position to refuse, but she dislikes to have discussions about it. She
> pays a stipend to me every month, and my tuition is waved.
>
> Is anyone here aware of a place where they do computational human
> biomechanics, mechanics, materials or finite elements where I could
> interact with free software? (having github, LaTeX, Python, etc.; avoid
> Micro$oft products, Matlab, Mathematica, etc.). Is there no place where one
> can simply use free software on a daily basis?
>
> It seems from her comments that I am, otherwise, a good researcher. She is
> a nice person, but I fear that this may become an issue in the future for
> me (whether with her or other people).
>
> As a student or junior faculty, how do you go about this? Do you just nod
> and wave your freedom good bye?
>
> Thank you! (I will post this in other fora as well; don't let that to
> discourage you from answering, please).
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator to keep your email out of
> the NSA's hands!
> $24.95 ONETIME Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features!  15GB disk! No
> bandwidth quotas!
> Commercial and Bulk Mail Options!
>

Re: General advice beyond Org

[hymie!]

In our last episode, the evil Dr. Lacto had captured our hero,
  edgar@openmail.cc <edgar@openmail.cc>, who said:

> I am in graduate school, and I keep having issues with my 
> advisor for my strong inclination to use free software. [...]
>
> Is anyone here aware of a place where they do computational human 
> biomechanics, mechanics, materials or finite elements where I could 
> interact with free software?

First question -- it sounds like you are doing very specific research
with very specific tools, software, equations, and things like that.
Are you sure that free software exists that will do what you want?

For example, good luck finding free software that will do your taxes.

> Do you just nod and wave your freedom good bye?

Second question -- you keep using that word "free".  Are you really "free"
in this situation?  You said you are getting tuition covered and a
stipend.  The way employment typically works is that, in return for
salary and/or compensation, you give your full devotion to your employer's
wants and needs instead of your own.  Using your employer's software is
not a huge jump.

I don't mean this as a personal attack.  That's how it works.  I am
"free" to wear a t-shirt that says "F**K THE POLICE" on it, but the
person who pays my salary would prefer if, for 40 hours each week, I
wear a different shirt.  I am "free" to ignore his request.  He is "free"
to stop paying my salary.

So I'm afraid that's my answer.  Suck it up and do what the nice person
who is giving you lots of money wants you to do, they way he/she wants
you to do it.

--hymie!     http://lactose.homelinux.net/~hymie    hymie@lactose.homelinux.net

Re: General advice beyond Org

[tomas]

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On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:50:32AM -0500, Kevin Buchs wrote:
> As a student, you simply need to go along with your supervisor's
> recommendations. You are not in a position to dictate the terms.

Nobody talks about dictating anything. Some supervisors are more
enlightened than other, so trying to talk to them doesn't seem
wrong.

>                                                            Using the
> proprietary tools will not hurt you, unless you need to buy your own.

With that I disagree strongly: free is not primarily about price
(more so in the OP's case, as he stated clearly). Reducing "free"
to price totally misses the point, IMO.

[...]

> So, you need to adjust your attitude. It may be that you are presenting the
> issue of principles - I prefer free, you prefer proprietary, but that is
> not really the true issue. Maybe you don't know the proprietary tools and
> don't want to learn them or feel you can't learn them. Choice of tools you
> use is no reason to switch graduate programs.

This whole paragraph comes across as somewhat... condescending.

> This is entirely a matter of getting along with other people, not being
> selfish, etc. These are life skills we are talking about.

Definitely. And part of this getting along is trying to negotiate
what matters to oneself and to others. I do agree that an intransigent
attitude isn't helpful, but Edgar didn't show something like that.

Fostering free software is exactly about "not being selfish".

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: General advice beyond Org

[Alan E. Davis]

I worked as a teacher in a school in a third world context, where the
district was severely underfunded.  I held out as much as I could.  I had
to use proprietary systems, eventually, to report attendance and grades, so
I installed Virtual Box.  It was a long and hard battle: printer drivers
were not up to snuff; networking was difficult compared to the M$
approach.  Back in the day---I started using GNU/Linux in the pre-1.0
kernel days---many things did not work smoothly, but the Linux
Documentation Project was a breath of fresh air, and a beam of light
enlightened the scene.  (As an aside, I note with misgivings that the LDP
is not well maintained---but I am partially responsible for this, because I
didn't work on documentation as perhaps I ought to have.  Then again, the
state of the "Linux Desktop" is such that other supports are available and
many of the hands on configuration and administration tasks are either
automatic or much simpler and more intuitive.).

I would suggest, in your context, that you do not have to abandon free
software, nor, I sense, are you advised to refuse to use the infrastructure
that has been given.  I use emacs for much, I really like org-mode a lot
and even thought I am not able to take advantage of many of the more
sophisticated tools of org-mode.  You may find, like many before you, that
the tools of free and open source software many streamline your workflow,
and give you an edge, even while you are using the ordained tools for your
specific disciplinary work.  When people see that the free and open tools
work for you, gradually you may make inroads, and not at the expense of
your career.

I believe this approach has been behind much of the achieved success of
Free and Open Source software and operating systems.

I am rooting for you.

Alan Davis


On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 8:31 AM, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

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> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:50:32AM -0500, Kevin Buchs wrote:
> > As a student, you simply need to go along with your supervisor's
> > recommendations. You are not in a position to dictate the terms.
>
> Nobody talks about dictating anything. Some supervisors are more
> enlightened than other, so trying to talk to them doesn't seem
> wrong.
>
> >                                                            Using the
> > proprietary tools will not hurt you, unless you need to buy your own.
>
> With that I disagree strongly: free is not primarily about price
> (more so in the OP's case, as he stated clearly). Reducing "free"
> to price totally misses the point, IMO.
>
> [...]
>
> > So, you need to adjust your attitude. It may be that you are presenting
> the
> > issue of principles - I prefer free, you prefer proprietary, but that is
> > not really the true issue. Maybe you don't know the proprietary tools and
> > don't want to learn them or feel you can't learn them. Choice of tools
> you
> > use is no reason to switch graduate programs.
>
> This whole paragraph comes across as somewhat... condescending.
>
> > This is entirely a matter of getting along with other people, not being
> > selfish, etc. These are life skills we are talking about.
>
> Definitely. And part of this getting along is trying to negotiate
> what matters to oneself and to others. I do agree that an intransigent
> attitude isn't helpful, but Edgar didn't show something like that.
>
> Fostering free software is exactly about "not being selfish".
>
> Cheers
> - -- tomás
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlr+8e0ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kax+wCfbKhTlIUw6n2SL106P2GgS4qa
> SWYAnjKwfLqGw5KnPqBCPPb1GHutiLfQ
> =szdJ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>


-- 
[Fill in the blanks]

The use of corrupt manipulations and blatant rhetorical ploys ...---
outright lying, flagwaving, personal attacks, setting up phony
alternatives, misdirection, jargon-mongering, evading key issues, feigning
disinterested objectivity, willful misunderstanding of other points of
view---suggests that ... lacks both credibility and evidence.

             ---- Edward Tufte (in context of making presentations)

Re: General advice beyond Org

[Alan E. Davis]

I failed to mention in my previous message that the powers that be in the
underfunded district where I worked were fully on board with the
proprietary tools that they had been given in colleges and high schools.
After a few years, I held a workshop and several teachers were able to
install Ubuntu, some of whom may be working with GNU/Linux today.

Alan

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> I worked as a teacher in a school in a third world context, where the
> district was severely underfunded.  I held out as much as I could.  I had
> to use proprietary systems, eventually, to report attendance and grades, so
> I installed Virtual Box.  It was a long and hard battle: printer drivers
> were not up to snuff; networking was difficult compared to the M$
> approach.  Back in the day---I started using GNU/Linux in the pre-1.0
> kernel days---many things did not work smoothly, but the Linux
> Documentation Project was a breath of fresh air, and a beam of light
> enlightened the scene.  (As an aside, I note with misgivings that the LDP
> is not well maintained---but I am partially responsible for this, because I
> didn't work on documentation as perhaps I ought to have.  Then again, the
> state of the "Linux Desktop" is such that other supports are available and
> many of the hands on configuration and administration tasks are either
> automatic or much simpler and more intuitive.).
>
> I would suggest, in your context, that you do not have to abandon free
> software, nor, I sense, are you advised to refuse to use the infrastructure
> that has been given.  I use emacs for much, I really like org-mode a lot
> and even thought I am not able to take advantage of many of the more
> sophisticated tools of org-mode.  You may find, like many before you, that
> the tools of free and open source software many streamline your workflow,
> and give you an edge, even while you are using the ordained tools for your
> specific disciplinary work.  When people see that the free and open tools
> work for you, gradually you may make inroads, and not at the expense of
> your career.
>
> I believe this approach has been behind much of the achieved success of
> Free and Open Source software and operating systems.
>
> I am rooting for you.
>
> Alan Davis
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 8:31 AM, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:50:32AM -0500, Kevin Buchs wrote:
>> > As a student, you simply need to go along with your supervisor's
>> > recommendations. You are not in a position to dictate the terms.
>>
>> Nobody talks about dictating anything. Some supervisors are more
>> enlightened than other, so trying to talk to them doesn't seem
>> wrong.
>>
>> >                                                            Using the
>> > proprietary tools will not hurt you, unless you need to buy your own.
>>
>> With that I disagree strongly: free is not primarily about price
>> (more so in the OP's case, as he stated clearly). Reducing "free"
>> to price totally misses the point, IMO.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > So, you need to adjust your attitude. It may be that you are presenting
>> the
>> > issue of principles - I prefer free, you prefer proprietary, but that is
>> > not really the true issue. Maybe you don't know the proprietary tools
>> and
>> > don't want to learn them or feel you can't learn them. Choice of tools
>> you
>> > use is no reason to switch graduate programs.
>>
>> This whole paragraph comes across as somewhat... condescending.
>>
>> > This is entirely a matter of getting along with other people, not being
>> > selfish, etc. These are life skills we are talking about.
>>
>> Definitely. And part of this getting along is trying to negotiate
>> what matters to oneself and to others. I do agree that an intransigent
>> attitude isn't helpful, but Edgar didn't show something like that.
>>
>> Fostering free software is exactly about "not being selfish".
>>
>> Cheers
>> - -- tomás
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAlr+8e0ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kax+wCfbKhTlIUw6n2SL106P2GgS4qa
>> SWYAnjKwfLqGw5KnPqBCPPb1GHutiLfQ
>> =szdJ
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> [Fill in the blanks]
>
> The use of corrupt manipulations and blatant rhetorical ploys ...---
> outright lying, flagwaving, personal attacks, setting up phony
> alternatives, misdirection, jargon-mongering, evading key issues, feigning
> disinterested objectivity, willful misunderstanding of other points of
> view---suggests that ... lacks both credibility and evidence.
>
>              ---- Edward Tufte (in context of making presentations)
>
>
>



-- 
[Fill in the blanks]

The use of corrupt manipulations and blatant rhetorical ploys ...---
outright lying, flagwaving, personal attacks, setting up phony
alternatives, misdirection, jargon-mongering, evading key issues, feigning
disinterested objectivity, willful misunderstanding of other points of
view---suggests that ... lacks both credibility and evidence.

             ---- Edward Tufte (in context of making presentations)

Re: General advice beyond Org

[Jason Yamada-Hanff]

Don't die on this hill. Collaborating with others, especially superiors,
means sometimes adjusting. I split the difference in grad school and used
emacs and other free software where I could and MS where it made
collaboration possible. My first piece of writing was handed to my advisor
as LaTeX. He asked me to convert it to Word, and I did. I wrote my thesis
in LaTeX. When we turned a chapter into a paper, I converted it to Word
before we started collaborating on it. When I handed him my lab notebook as
a series of org-mode files he could search instantly by text, he liked
that. Sometimes you win.

Your professors arguments are good. Her tools work well for her. Why should
she switch to new ones? Your moral principles aren't going to have a lot of
away. Further, git and other version control does not provide the full
features of Track Changes in Word.

Sent from phone

On Fri, May 18, 2018, 9:20 AM Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> I worked as a teacher in a school in a third world context, where the
> district was severely underfunded.  I held out as much as I could.  I had
> to use proprietary systems, eventually, to report attendance and grades, so
> I installed Virtual Box.  It was a long and hard battle: printer drivers
> were not up to snuff; networking was difficult compared to the M$
> approach.  Back in the day---I started using GNU/Linux in the pre-1.0
> kernel days---many things did not work smoothly, but the Linux
> Documentation Project was a breath of fresh air, and a beam of light
> enlightened the scene.  (As an aside, I note with misgivings that the LDP
> is not well maintained---but I am partially responsible for this, because I
> didn't work on documentation as perhaps I ought to have.  Then again, the
> state of the "Linux Desktop" is such that other supports are available and
> many of the hands on configuration and administration tasks are either
> automatic or much simpler and more intuitive.).
>
> I would suggest, in your context, that you do not have to abandon free
> software, nor, I sense, are you advised to refuse to use the infrastructure
> that has been given.  I use emacs for much, I really like org-mode a lot
> and even thought I am not able to take advantage of many of the more
> sophisticated tools of org-mode.  You may find, like many before you, that
> the tools of free and open source software many streamline your workflow,
> and give you an edge, even while you are using the ordained tools for your
> specific disciplinary work.  When people see that the free and open tools
> work for you, gradually you may make inroads, and not at the expense of
> your career.
>
> I believe this approach has been behind much of the achieved success of
> Free and Open Source software and operating systems.
>
> I am rooting for you.
>
> Alan Davis
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 8:31 AM, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:50:32AM -0500, Kevin Buchs wrote:
> > > As a student, you simply need to go along with your supervisor's
> > > recommendations. You are not in a position to dictate the terms.
> >
> > Nobody talks about dictating anything. Some supervisors are more
> > enlightened than other, so trying to talk to them doesn't seem
> > wrong.
> >
> > >                                                            Using the
> > > proprietary tools will not hurt you, unless you need to buy your own.
> >
> > With that I disagree strongly: free is not primarily about price
> > (more so in the OP's case, as he stated clearly). Reducing "free"
> > to price totally misses the point, IMO.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > So, you need to adjust your attitude. It may be that you are presenting
> > the
> > > issue of principles - I prefer free, you prefer proprietary, but that
> is
> > > not really the true issue. Maybe you don't know the proprietary tools
> and
> > > don't want to learn them or feel you can't learn them. Choice of tools
> > you
> > > use is no reason to switch graduate programs.
> >
> > This whole paragraph comes across as somewhat... condescending.
> >
> > > This is entirely a matter of getting along with other people, not being
> > > selfish, etc. These are life skills we are talking about.
> >
> > Definitely. And part of this getting along is trying to negotiate
> > what matters to oneself and to others. I do agree that an intransigent
> > attitude isn't helpful, but Edgar didn't show something like that.
> >
> > Fostering free software is exactly about "not being selfish".
> >
> > Cheers
> > - -- tomás
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> > iEYEARECAAYFAlr+8e0ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kax+wCfbKhTlIUw6n2SL106P2GgS4qa
> > SWYAnjKwfLqGw5KnPqBCPPb1GHutiLfQ
> > =szdJ
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> [Fill in the blanks]
>
> The use of corrupt manipulations and blatant rhetorical ploys ...---
> outright lying, flagwaving, personal attacks, setting up phony
> alternatives, misdirection, jargon-mongering, evading key issues, feigning
> disinterested objectivity, willful misunderstanding of other points of
> view---suggests that ... lacks both credibility and evidence.
>
>              ---- Edward Tufte (in context of making presentations)
>

Re: General advice beyond Org

[Devin Prater]

I agree with this. As a blind user of Emacs, with Emacspeak, I know that
sometimes people must use non-free software, like Voxin TTS on Linux, or
MacinTalk on macOS, to get speech synthesis that is enjoyable to use.
But I do use as much free software as I can to get work done, which is
mainly just sticking to Emacs because somehow I can remember all the key
commands and my reading comprehension is amazing there, relative to
using screen reading, content-unaware systems for the blind. Most blind
people, though, use Windows, Microsoft Word, and a screen reader that
costs $1099+ and yet could never measure up to Emacspeak, well besides
web content but I’m sure that if EWW gained Javascript and HTML5
support, I’d never need to leave Emacs, ever. So, my point is, I have to
interact with these other blind people, and people in Assistive Tech
organizations, and I do that well with converting .org files to .docx
with Pandoc, using Twittering-mode in Emacs while other blind Mac users
pay $20 for Twitterific, and Gnus for email, which is used very often by
the blind for list-serves because Email is very accessible for us.
I don’t use Latex, yet, and may never have to because Org is so
powerful, but you could just use Pandoc for that as well. That’s one of
the great things about Free things, they try to work with everything,
while proprietary software tries to lock users in because their way is
supposedly best. Aside: Why am I using a Mac? Accessibility, and great
Text-to-speech built-in.
Jason Yamada-Hanff <jyamada1@gmail.com> writes:

> Don't die on this hill. Collaborating with others, especially superiors,
> means sometimes adjusting. I split the difference in grad school and used
> emacs and other free software where I could and MS where it made
> collaboration possible. My first piece of writing was handed to my advisor
> as LaTeX. He asked me to convert it to Word, and I did. I wrote my thesis
> in LaTeX. When we turned a chapter into a paper, I converted it to Word
> before we started collaborating on it. When I handed him my lab notebook as
> a series of org-mode files he could search instantly by text, he liked
> that. Sometimes you win.
>
> Your professors arguments are good. Her tools work well for her. Why should
> she switch to new ones? Your moral principles aren't going to have a lot of
> away. Further, git and other version control does not provide the full
> features of Track Changes in Word.
>
> Sent from phone
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018, 9:20 AM Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I worked as a teacher in a school in a third world context, where the
>> district was severely underfunded.  I held out as much as I could.  I had
>> to use proprietary systems, eventually, to report attendance and grades, so
>> I installed Virtual Box.  It was a long and hard battle: printer drivers
>> were not up to snuff; networking was difficult compared to the M$
>> approach.  Back in the day---I started using GNU/Linux in the pre-1.0
>> kernel days---many things did not work smoothly, but the Linux
>> Documentation Project was a breath of fresh air, and a beam of light
>> enlightened the scene.  (As an aside, I note with misgivings that the LDP
>> is not well maintained---but I am partially responsible for this, because I
>> didn't work on documentation as perhaps I ought to have.  Then again, the
>> state of the "Linux Desktop" is such that other supports are available and
>> many of the hands on configuration and administration tasks are either
>> automatic or much simpler and more intuitive.).
>>
>> I would suggest, in your context, that you do not have to abandon free
>> software, nor, I sense, are you advised to refuse to use the infrastructure
>> that has been given.  I use emacs for much, I really like org-mode a lot
>> and even thought I am not able to take advantage of many of the more
>> sophisticated tools of org-mode.  You may find, like many before you, that
>> the tools of free and open source software many streamline your workflow,
>> and give you an edge, even while you are using the ordained tools for your
>> specific disciplinary work.  When people see that the free and open tools
>> work for you, gradually you may make inroads, and not at the expense of
>> your career.
>>
>> I believe this approach has been behind much of the achieved success of
>> Free and Open Source software and operating systems.
>>
>> I am rooting for you.
>>
>> Alan Davis
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 8:31 AM, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
>>
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> > Hash: SHA1
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:50:32AM -0500, Kevin Buchs wrote:
>> > > As a student, you simply need to go along with your supervisor's
>> > > recommendations. You are not in a position to dictate the terms.
>> >
>> > Nobody talks about dictating anything. Some supervisors are more
>> > enlightened than other, so trying to talk to them doesn't seem
>> > wrong.
>> >
>> > >                                                            Using the
>> > > proprietary tools will not hurt you, unless you need to buy your own.
>> >
>> > With that I disagree strongly: free is not primarily about price
>> > (more so in the OP's case, as he stated clearly). Reducing "free"
>> > to price totally misses the point, IMO.
>> >
>> > [...]
>> >
>> > > So, you need to adjust your attitude. It may be that you are presenting
>> > the
>> > > issue of principles - I prefer free, you prefer proprietary, but that
>> is
>> > > not really the true issue. Maybe you don't know the proprietary tools
>> and
>> > > don't want to learn them or feel you can't learn them. Choice of tools
>> > you
>> > > use is no reason to switch graduate programs.
>> >
>> > This whole paragraph comes across as somewhat... condescending.
>> >
>> > > This is entirely a matter of getting along with other people, not being
>> > > selfish, etc. These are life skills we are talking about.
>> >
>> > Definitely. And part of this getting along is trying to negotiate
>> > what matters to oneself and to others. I do agree that an intransigent
>> > attitude isn't helpful, but Edgar didn't show something like that.
>> >
>> > Fostering free software is exactly about "not being selfish".
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > - -- tomás
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
>> >
>> > iEYEARECAAYFAlr+8e0ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kax+wCfbKhTlIUw6n2SL106P2GgS4qa
>> > SWYAnjKwfLqGw5KnPqBCPPb1GHutiLfQ
>> > =szdJ
>> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> [Fill in the blanks]
>>
>> The use of corrupt manipulations and blatant rhetorical ploys ...---
>> outright lying, flagwaving, personal attacks, setting up phony
>> alternatives, misdirection, jargon-mongering, evading key issues, feigning
>> disinterested objectivity, willful misunderstanding of other points of
>> view---suggests that ... lacks both credibility and evidence.
>>
>>              ---- Edward Tufte (in context of making presentations)
>>

Re: General advice beyond Org

[Stefan Monnier]

> It is only when we have to collaborate directly that the issue
> arises.  I guess that it's a similar situation as you are having
> (programming? she does not care, I can do whatever I want; publication
> abstract? she wants a DOCX or DOC).

Collaborating on an article does require a fairly "deep" integration of
various people's tools, so some compromise often need to be made.

If she's used to using Word to edit documents, then it's likely going to
be difficult to convince her to use something else, at least during your
tenure as student.  What I do usually in those cases is the following:

- I refuse to install proprietary software, so in the worst case I'll edit
  a .docx document with LibreOffice (I don't see why she'd object to
  that under the imperfect compatibility between LibreOffice and Word
  gets in the way).
  [ BTW, If imperfect compatibility between LibreOffice and Word gets in the
  way, you might try and look for some other version of Word than hers,
  and find other incompatibilities (the various Word versions also
  suffer from imperfect compatibility), so as to show her that the issue
  is not just due to your use of Free Software.  ]

- You can try and get her to install the ODT plugin for Word so she can
  open ODT documents as well as .docx in her Word program.
  I often make the effort to only send ODT documents, even when it's
  a modification of a document that was sent to me in .docx format (on
  the premise that I shouldn't be the only one to bear the brunt of the
  format war).

- Depending on how many changes/annotations she contributes to the
  document, you might be able to keep your original in your favorite
  format (LaTeX, Org, you name it); convert it to ODT or .docx before
  sending it to her; and then integrating her changes/annotations by
  hand into your original document.

Using Git with ODT/.docx documents is about as pleasant as pulling teeth
in my experience, so there's no point trying to convince her to try it
out as long as she sticks to such WYSIWYG thingies.

Of course, the real problems start when she wants to use some *really*
poorly supported format like Apple's Pages.


        Stefan

Re: [O] General advice beyond Org

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2018-05-18, at 15:50, hymie! <hymie@lactose.homelinux.net> wrote:

> For example, good luck finding free software that will do your taxes.

I, for that matter, do not use any proprietary software to do my taxes.
(And BTW, I'm not religiously following the "only use free software"
mantra, in fact, I feel some distance to the FSF ideals.)

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbork.pl

Re: General advice beyond Org

[Samuel Wales]

perhaps we can start thinking about improving registration between formats?

if you export org [you posted to org mailng list] to a foreign format,
you want your collaborator to be able to edit, save, send back without
raising a sweat.

now you have to integrate the changes.  you want to do this without annoyance.

suppose you export comments in the foreign format that contain the
equivalent of persistent markers.  you might or might not be willing
to put org id or custom id on every heading, but there might be
workarounds that are not so intrusive.  maybe your source can contain
comments with markers.  dunno.

if your exported document is a subtree within a huge org file that you
edit all the time, registration allows your software to identify that
subtree, so you're not trying to change anything outside that subtree.
that alone is a win.

but maybe we can do more.  the markers can register sections or even
paragraphs if you're doing intensive collaboration.  the tricky part
might be getting standard tools to understand that the mapping of
markers takes precedence over everything else.

details of this handwavey and possibly impossible brainstorm are left
as an exercise for the reader.

Re: General advice beyond Org

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 06:24:49PM -0700, Samuel Wales wrote:
> perhaps we can start thinking about improving registration between formats?

This resonates with some vague ideas that keep haunting some
dark corners of my mind:

it isn't generally possible to convert "Word" [1] into Org. But what
if that "Word" is just a slight modification of something which has
been transformed from an Org document we know?

Of course, augmenting that with "pockets" where to stash meta-information
which might get lost on round-trip would be even more interesting. Perhaps
those pockets are external, tied to some (possibly change-resistant) hash
made of enough context.

Did I say dark corners?

Cheers

[1] "Word" as a placeholder for some random, rather unfriendly document
   format.
- -- t
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