GNUS gnus-group-split .. my sorting is bad.

GNUS gnus-group-split .. my sorting is bad.

[Nils Gillmann]

I have a GNUS related question on mail-splitting.

There are many lists I follow, and with the sorting method I
picked at some time, I now get email which is CC'ed or in any
other way directed to more than one list I follow into one list
folder only. This is not what I want. I think my way to think
about sorting mail could be challenged with some input from
others.

partial quote from .gnus.el (I spare you the 70+ single entries
of mailinglists)

;; next version of splitting
;; in .emacs/init.el:  '(nnmail-split-methods (quote gnus-group-split))
(setq nnmail-split-methods
      '(
        ;;; --- LISTS ---
        ;; GNU/Emacs
        ("ml.gnu.emacs.emacs-bug" "^\\(From:\\|To:\\|Reply-To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*\\(bug-gnu-emacs\\|bug-gnu-emacs-request\\|bug-gnu-emacs-confirm\\)@gnu\\.org")
        ("ml.gnu.emacs.emacs-info" "^\\(From:\\|Reply-To:\\|To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*\\(info-gnu-emacs\\|info-gnu-emacs-request\\|info-gnu-emacs-confirm\\)@gnu\\.org")                           ("ml.gnu.emacs.emacs-help" "^\\(From:\\|To:\\|Reply-To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*\\(help-gnu-emacs\\|help-gnu-emacs-request\\|help-gnu-emacs-confirm\\)@gnu\\.org")                           ("ml.gnu.emacs.emacs-devel" "^\\(From:\\|To:\\|Reply-To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*emacs-devel@gnu\\.org")
        ("ml.gnu.emacs.erc-discuss" "^\\(From:\\|To:\\|Reply-To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*erc-discuss@gnu\\.org")
        ;;; --GUIX (help-guix@gnu.org bug-guix@gnu.org  guix-commits@gnu.org)
        ("ml.gnu.guix.help-guix" "^\\(From:\\|Reply-To:\\|To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*\\(help-guix\\|help-guix-request\\|help-guix-bounces\\)@gnu\\.org")
        ("ml.gnu.guix.bug-guix" "^\\(From:\\|Reply-To:\\|To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*\\(bug-guix\\|bug-guix-request\\|bug-guix-bounces\\)@gnu\\.org")
        ("ml.gnu.guix.bug-guix" "^\\(From:\\|Reply-To:\\|To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*debbugs\\.gnu\\.org")
        ("ml.gnu.guix.guix-devel" "^\\(From:\\|Reply-To:\\|To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*\\(guix-devel\\|guix-devel-request\\|guix-devel-bounces\\)@gnu\\.org")
        ("ml.gnu.guix.guix-commits" "^\\(From:\\|Reply-To:\\|To:\\|Cc:\\|CC:\\|Resent\\|X-BeenThere:\\).*\\(guix-commits\\|guix-commits-request\\|guix-commits-bounces\\)@gnu\\.org")))

to pick some not so nice lines, the basic structure is all like
this, From Reply-To To Cc CC Resent X-BeenThere

What is it I could take out or completely redo to get the mail
splitting work as I want it to do?

thanks,
-- 

ng

irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/~NiAsterisk
http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/NiAsterisk/
torify telnet loupsycedyglgamf.onion

Re: GNUS gnus-group-split .. my sorting is bad.

[Emanuel Berg]

Nils Gillmann <niasterisk@grrlz.net> writes:

> I have a GNUS related question on mail-splitting.

It isn't "GNUS" anymore but Gnus.

> There are many lists I follow, and with the sorting
> method I picked at some time

Don't do that with mailing lists directly: do that
with Gmane! This is the exact intended purpose of
Gmane and it works *great* - it is incomparably better
than splitting in every respect.

So do:

    (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org"))

If you like, you can have other NNTP servers (e.g.,
Usenet with nntp.aioe.org) and mail (nnml) as well:

    (require 'gnus-namazu)
    (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnml "" (nnir-search-engine namazu))
                                          (nntp "nntp.aioe.org")
                                          (nntp "news.gwene.org")
                                          (nntp "news.gnus.org")
                                          ))

> I now get email which is CC'ed or in any other way
> directed to more than one list I follow into one
> list folder only. This is not what I want. I think
> my way to think about sorting mail could be
> challenged with some input from others.

When you have Gmane up and your previous lists working
as newsgroups, you can unsubscribe to them. If there
are 70+ that should be a challenge in itself. Some you
will be unable to unsubscribe to. Get a new mail
account, perhaps...

But even if you do some people will still send you Cc
mails when they respond to your Gmane posts!

So ironically, here splitting can be put to good use!
You can create a group "mail.ml-ooa" (mail list out-
of-action) and then:

(setq nnmail-split-methods
      '(
        ("mail.ml-ooa" "\\(To\\|Cc\\):.*\\(emacs-w3m@namazu.org\\|help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org\\|gnuplot-info@lists.sourceforge.net\\)")
        ("mail.misc"   "")) )

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: GNUS gnus-group-split .. my sorting is bad.

[Nils Gillmann]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Nils Gillmann <niasterisk@grrlz.net> writes:
>
>> I have a GNUS related question on mail-splitting.
>
> It isn't "GNUS" anymore but Gnus.
>
>> There are many lists I follow, and with the sorting
>> method I picked at some time
>
> Don't do that with mailing lists directly: do that
> with Gmane! This is the exact intended purpose of
> Gmane and it works *great* - it is incomparably better
> than splitting in every respect.
Here's a question: why? What's the rational choice to favor gmane
over subscribing to mailman at gnu.org for the Guix project and
others I participate in?
I get my mail via socksv5, including the mail from the lists, via
a service which runs on a .onion.(*) I don't have a connection all
time (but from my limited experience with Gnus and newsgroups a
while back offline storage/cache is possible).
For plain discussion I get it. For sending in patches etc I'm not
sure (okay this is plain text too).

I also have lists which are not on gmane or some other
serverbased network with nntp access. for example local
hackerspaces. Same issue applies here:
message gets sends to the "announce" list and CC the "discuss"
list, both end up in the list which comes first in my filters.

(*) I am aware that it does not make email safer, but I have my
reasons.

>
> So do:
>
>     (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org"))
>
> If you like, you can have other NNTP servers (e.g.,
> Usenet with nntp.aioe.org) and mail (nnml) as well:
>
>     (require 'gnus-namazu)
>     (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnml "" (nnir-search-engine namazu))
>                                           (nntp "nntp.aioe.org")
>                                           (nntp "news.gwene.org")
>                                           (nntp "news.gnus.org")
>                                           ))
>
>> I now get email which is CC'ed or in any other way
>> directed to more than one list I follow into one
>> list folder only. This is not what I want. I think
>> my way to think about sorting mail could be
>> challenged with some input from others.
>
> When you have Gmane up and your previous lists working
> as newsgroups, you can unsubscribe to them. If there
> are 70+ that should be a challenge in itself. Some you
> will be unable to unsubscribe to. Get a new mail
> account, perhaps...

I did change accounts before, changing email addresses at all of
them works.

>
> But even if you do some people will still send you Cc
> mails when they respond to your Gmane posts!

That's the usual behavior on mosts lists (or how most people
configure their mail agents) I am on, To: person you
replying to, CC: list.

>
> So ironically, here splitting can be put to good use!
> You can create a group "mail.ml-ooa" (mail list out-
> of-action) and then:
>
> (setq nnmail-split-methods
>       '(
>         ("mail.ml-ooa" "\\(To\\|Cc\\):.*\\(emacs-w3m@namazu.org\\|help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org\\|gnuplot-info@lists.sourceforge.net\\)")
>         ("mail.misc"   "")) )

In the whole picture - leaving aside the whole other issue with
email in general, with an external service as gmane, etc - your
recommendation looks good to me.
It can be done for almost all lists I have, however I would still
need a recommendation for the ones I can't apply it to.
Take the CC and Cc out of the filters for lists?

Thanks,
-- 

ng

irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/~NiAsterisk
http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/NiAsterisk/
torify telnet loupsycedyglgamf.onion

Re: GNUS gnus-group-split .. my sorting is bad.

[Nils Gillmann]

Hi,

a while later, after playing around with the configuration and
groups I get what you mean.
However I need to figure out a way for the groups I can't post to
via nntp and who still get sorted wrong occasionally in their
nnml groups.

An (future) alternative would be to run an non-public (as
non-public as it get with email) email catch server gateway thing
on one of my servers to enable nntp <-> email traversal.

Thanks for your help so far, it really reduced the length of my
Gnus configuration.

I noticed namazu is not packaged for Guix, another package I can
work on.


Thanks,
-- 
ng
irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/~NiAsterisk
http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/NiAsterisk/
torify telnet loupsycedyglgamf.onion

Re: GNUS gnus-group-split .. my sorting is bad.

[Emanuel Berg]

Nils Gillmann <niasterisk@grrlz.net> writes:

> Here's a question: why? What's the rational choice
> to favor gmane over subscribing to mailman at
> gnu.org for the Guix project and others
> I participate in?

There are many advantages. Three that instantly come
to mind are:

1. You get the lists/newsgroups as a uniform Emacs
   interface and you don't have to Google individual
   sites and wade thru the projects different homepages
   to get to their lists. You only have to bring up
   the 'browse server' buffer to see them all -
   organized, sorted, and you can search the buffer
   like any other (so it is a double "uniform Emacs
   interface"). Have a look:

       http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/pics/gnus-server.png

2. You can add, interact, and remove lists/newsgroups
   like any other NNTP newsgroup and you don't have to
   deal with verification and e-mails back and forth
   from different automatic systems which often do not
   work or take time to react to the point you wonder
   if it actually did work...

3. Instead of getting all the traffic all the time,
   you only fetch data when you want it. (At least
   compared to nnml. YMMV. But if it is the same for
   you, it should be a *huge* advantage as you are on
   so many lists!) E.g., I subscribe to the
   gmane.emacs.erc.general as well as
   gmane.emacs.help. On gmane.emacs.help, I'm active
   writing so I want all traffic. But, on
   gmane.emacs.erc.general, I only ask one specific
   question or so once a couple of months. So I always
   want gmane.emacs.help, but very seldom
   gmane.emacs.erc.general (still, I want it to be
   there, ready), and with Gmane this is not only
   possible but super easy to do.

> I also have lists which are not on gmane or some
> other serverbased network with nntp access.
> for example local hackerspaces.

Gmane does not exclude any other source of data to be
used in parallel:

    (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org"))

    (require 'gnus-namazu)
    (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnml "" (nnir-search-engine namazu))
                                          (nntp "nntp.aioe.org")
                                          (nntp "news.gwene.org")
                                          (nntp "news.gnus.org")
                                          ))

> That's the usual behavior on mosts lists (or how
> most people configure their mail agents) I am on,
> To: person you replying to, CC: list.

Isn't it the other way around?

But it doesn't matter. Like I said, you can use
splitting to take those to an out-of-action group.

I do that - add the list to the splitting regexp -
when it happens, i.e. when I get a superfluous mail
which originated from a list/group I know I'm on
so I know I'll see the post anyway.

    (setq nnmail-split-methods
          '(
            ("mail.ml-ooa" "\\(To\\|Cc\\):.*\\(emacs-w3m@namazu.org\\|help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org\\|gnuplot-info@lists.sourceforge.net\\)")
            ("mail.misc"   "")) )

> In the whole picture - leaving aside the whole other
> issue with email in general, with an external
> service as gmane, etc - your recommendation looks
> good to me. It can be done for almost all lists
> I have, however I would still need a recommendation
> for the ones I can't apply it to. Take the CC and Cc
> out of the filters for lists?

You can do it with splitting or with scoring.
Splitting would be favorable (more transparent) at
least in its base form as it doesn't require you to
enter the group to execute.

Add the newsgroup from Gmane, wait for the CCs to
come, when they do split or downscore and they
shouldn't return.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: GNUS gnus-group-split .. my sorting is bad.

[Emanuel Berg]

Nils Gillmann <niasterisk@grrlz.net> writes:

> a while later, after playing around with the
> configuration and groups I get what you mean.
> However I need to figure out a way for the groups
> I can't post to via nntp and who still get sorted
> wrong occasionally in their nnml groups.

I already posted this piece of code, but I'll do again
as it illustrates this principle:

    (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org"))

    (require 'gnus-namazu)
    (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnml "" (nnir-search-engine namazu))
                                          (nntp "nntp.aioe.org")
                                          (nntp "news.gwene.org")
                                          (nntp "news.gnus.org")
                                          ))

First: Gmane (nntp, news.gmane.org - this *is* the
              mail-to-news gateway!)

Also: - mail (nnml)

      - Usenet (nntp, nntp.aioe.org - for e.g.,
                rec.bicycles.tech which isn't on
                Gmane)

      - blogs (nntp, news.gwene.org - I never read
               those, *ehm*)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573