From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 04:26:26 +0200 Message-ID: <87r28xq0j1.fsf@telefonica.net> References: <20190514235412.kncazq45szlum2gr@Ergus> <83v9yb92c7.fsf@gnu.org> <878sv7sp3r.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r28z8zl9.fsf@gnu.org> <20190515210924.sijzy6mnpgzkt4gm@Ergus> <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> <838sv6cmwt.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516202327.5cgy2s4kppy3ahxa@Ergus> <871s0yqg2i.fsf@telefonica.net> <3210C8E9-7A74-47D6-81A0-470948E6D09C@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="258127"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 17 04:26:50 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hRSa9-00152U-ET for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 04:26:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39978 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRSa8-0002xW-Gi for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 22:26:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37848) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRSZy-0002xC-1A for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 22:26:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRSZx-0003P7-31 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 22:26:38 -0400 Original-Received: from [195.159.176.226] (port=41970 helo=blaine.gmane.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRSZw-0003Od-LW for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 16 May 2019 22:26:37 -0400 Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hRSZu-0014qA-UO for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 04:26:34 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Cancel-Lock: sha1:mMm6Ljaj3dqQytyNxmKEjAAVGvQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 195.159.176.226 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120453 Archived-At: Jean-Christophe Helary writes: >> On May 17, 2019, at 5:50, Óscar Fuentes wrote: >> >>> so we need to offer some advantage on the first >>> try over the others to keep the users. >> >> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you >> experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of >> instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who >> understand that gains require efforts. > > I find that comment extremely condescending. > > If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one > can get started right away, then I'm all for it. "Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*. It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but, alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things that require certain effort to be used effectively. Maybe Emacs requires a bit more effort at the beginning, but it pays off... at least on text manipulation tasks. > Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems first to appeal to > people who want to give priority to free software, at the *cost* of > ease of use. >From 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years and discounting Java and some other modern language) Emacs was the best programmer's editor on the "by hackers, for hackers" category. I suppose that most current users come from that period. > Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users > who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite. Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are Free Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed. OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more peculiar than Emacs, but with a growing user base. Those who point out the dificulties of new users to copy and paste or to save text to a file with Emacs, should ponder how vim has no problem requiring training for doing the most basic thing a text editor is supposed to do. Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.