Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Jorge P. de Morais Neto]

Hi.  I love digital ethics, GNU and Emacs!  Which keyboard-driven
hackable window manager (WM) or desktop environment (DE) do you
recommend?  I currently use GNOME 3 DE.  Years ago I used Enlightenment,
Xfce and Fluxbox but then I migrated to GNOME to learn a good libre and
user friendly DE so I could assist unskilled users such as my family.

I have now reconsidered---I want a hackable keyboard-driven WM or DE.
I'll keep GNOME installed as plan B for difficulties with the hacker WM.
Also, once in a while I will use GNOME just to preserve useful knowledge
for assisting unskilled users.

I also want to remap keys, so for example in IceCat and Gajim C-n will
mean <down> as in Emacs.  I have read this is easy on StumpWM, I hope it
is also easy in i3 and EXWM.  I would also prefer a WM with a system
tray, so it is easy (for example) to check for new messages on Gajim.

So far I am divided between i3 and EXWM.  EXWM would likely be cooler
and more hackable but lacks Wayland support, and Wayland is the near
future.  I don't want to have to learn another hacker WM for Wayland.
So the leading candidate is i3, since Sway implements i3 concepts on
Wayland.  I read it even accepts i3 config files.  Thus:

* Poll: best hackable and keyboard-driven WM/DE for sw freedom activists

1. i3/Sway
2. EXWM
3. Ratpoison
4. StumpWM
5. Awesome
6. bspwm
7. xmonad
8. GNOME
9. Mate
10. XFCE
11. LXDE
12. Other---specify:

Should support key remapping and be future-proof (Wayland).  Ideally
hackable in Elisp, Guile Scheme, Common Lisp or Bash; Python and C OK.
Low resource usage is desirable but good features take priority.

Regards

-- 
- Many people hate injustice but few check the facts; this causes more
  injustice.  Ask me about <https://stallmansupport.org>
- Please adopt free/libre formats like PDF, Org, LaTeX, ODF, Opus, WebM and 7z.
- Libre apps for AOSP (Replicant, LineageOS, etc.) and Android: F-Droid
- https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html "What is free software?"

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Po Lu]

"Jorge P. de Morais Neto" <jorge+list@disroot.org> writes:

> I have now reconsidered---I want a hackable keyboard-driven WM or DE.
> I'll keep GNOME installed as plan B for difficulties with the hacker WM.
> Also, once in a while I will use GNOME just to preserve useful knowledge
> for assisting unskilled users.

Is there any particular reason GNOME doesn't suit your needs?  GNOME is
hackable, through shell extensions and also Mutter plugins, is part of
the GNU project, and is in my experience more solid than most of the
alternatives you mentioned in your poll.

Thanks.

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[tomas]

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On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 08:08:00AM +0800, Po Lu wrote:
> "Jorge P. de Morais Neto" <jorge+list@disroot.org> writes:

[...]

> Is there any particular reason GNOME doesn't suit your needs?

Not the OP, but I am one of those who ran away from GNOME. In my case
the reason is: infantilisation. I can't stand that.

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Po Lu]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> Not the OP, but I am one of those who ran away from GNOME. In my case
> the reason is: infantilisation. I can't stand that.

That attitude is familiar to me, because it was common around the
release of GNOME 2.  And the removal of Sawfish also caused quite a
stir.

Give it some time.  Even though GNOME might have been making some bad
design decisions as of late, it's still leaps and bounds ahead of the
competition.

I'm not sure if this discussion is appropriate help-gnu-emacs though.
It's getting a bit off topic.

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Po Lu wrote:

>> Not the OP, but I am one of those who ran away from GNOME.
>> In my case the reason is: infantilisation. I can't
>> stand that.
>
> That attitude is familiar to me, because it was common
> around the release of GNOME 2. And the removal of Sawfish
> also caused quite a stir.

I'm not appealed by a project like GNOME because it is a world
of software while I'm on the contrary happy to have but a few
tools and those few I select on a tool-by-tool basis. It is
a very pleasant game.

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/SOFTWARE

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Po Lu]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> Not the OP, but I am one of those who ran away from GNOME. In my case
> the reason is: infantilisation. I can't stand that.

That complaint I find familiar, because it was common around the release
of GNOME 2.  And the removal of Sawfish also caused quite a stir.

Give it some time.  Even though GNOME might have been making some bad
design decisions as of late, it's still leaps and bounds ahead of the
competition.

I'm not sure if this discussion is appropriate help-gnu-emacs though.
It's getting a bit off topic.

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[tomas]

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On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 04:12:31PM +0800, Po Lu wrote:
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> 
> > [infantilisation]

> Give it some time [...]

another ten years :)

[don't get me wrong: I don't see these things as absolutes. I am strongly
opposed to the idea that there should be That One User Interface. People
are just... too diverse. The challenge is how we can keep communicating
across this mess :-) ].

> I'm not sure if this discussion is appropriate help-gnu-emacs though.
> It's getting a bit off topic.

Definitely :-)

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

tomas wrote:

> [don't get me wrong: I don't see these things as absolutes.
> I am strongly opposed to the idea that there should be That
> One User Interface. People are just... too diverse.
> The challenge is how we can keep communicating across this
> mess :-) ].

The diversity is a strength, no doubt.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Jude DaShiell]

emacspeak ought to have been put in as a contender with its special
accessibility facility.  A computer in the Smithsonian Museum is running
emacspeak with emacs.


On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
editor wrote:

> tomas wrote:
>
> > [don't get me wrong: I don't see these things as absolutes.
> > I am strongly opposed to the idea that there should be That
> > One User Interface. People are just... too diverse.
> > The challenge is how we can keep communicating across this
> > mess :-) ].
>
> The diversity is a strength, no doubt.
>
>

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[tomas]

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On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:13:31PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> emacspeak ought to have been put in as a contender with its special
> accessibility facility.  A computer in the Smithsonian Museum is running
> emacspeak with emacs.

Definitely, thanks for this one.

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Samuel Banya]

To be fair, I didn't know KDE Plasma had tiling ability, neat.

On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, at 3:50 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:13:31PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > emacspeak ought to have been put in as a contender with its special
> > accessibility facility.  A computer in the Smithsonian Museum is running
> > emacspeak with emacs.
> 
> Definitely, thanks for this one.
> 
> Cheers
> - t
> 
> 
> *Attachments:*
>  * signature.asc

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Samuel Banya]

Gnome is probably the worst DE I have ever used in my entire life. Not only is it just bloated, but it just wants to be MacOSX so badly, and I don't even like MacOSX that much and prefer Linux.

I would stay away honestly.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, at 8:08 PM, Po Lu wrote:
> "Jorge P. de Morais Neto" <jorge+list@disroot.org <mailto:jorge%2Blist@disroot.org>> writes:
> 
> > I have now reconsidered---I want a hackable keyboard-driven WM or DE.
> > I'll keep GNOME installed as plan B for difficulties with the hacker WM.
> > Also, once in a while I will use GNOME just to preserve useful knowledge
> > for assisting unskilled users.
> 
> Is there any particular reason GNOME doesn't suit your needs?  GNOME is
> hackable, through shell extensions and also Mutter plugins, is part of
> the GNU project, and is in my experience more solid than most of the
> alternatives you mentioned in your poll.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Po Lu wrote:

>> I have now reconsidered---I want a hackable keyboard-driven
>> WM or DE. I'll keep GNOME installed as plan B for
>> difficulties with the hacker WM. Also, once in a while
>> I will use GNOME just to preserve useful knowledge for
>> assisting unskilled users.
>
> Is there any particular reason GNOME doesn't suit your
> needs? GNOME is hackable, through shell extensions and also
> Mutter plugins, is part of the GNU project, and is in my
> experience more solid than most of the alternatives you
> mentioned in your poll.

GNOME is a world, it cannot be compared with e.g. openbsd-cwm
which is a to-the-point window manager.

So one list for DEs and one for WMs, please ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> GNOME is a world, it cannot be compared with e.g. openbsd-cwm
> which is a to-the-point window manager.
>
> So one list for DEs and one for WMs, please ...

But GNOME was in the poll.

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Jorge P. de Morais Neto]

Hi.  I thank everyone who contributed and reply below:

Em [2021-11-05 sex 08:08:00+0800], Po Lu escreveu:

> Is there any particular reason GNOME doesn't suit your needs?  GNOME
> is hackable, through shell extensions and also Mutter plugins, is part
> of the GNU project, and is in my experience more solid than most of
> the alternatives you mentioned in your poll.

Indeed I have searched for tiling window management for GNOME and found
Pop! OS Shell: https://github.com/pop-os/shell

I am trying it.

Regards

-- 
- Many people hate injustice but few check the facts; this causes more
  injustice.  Ask me about <https://stallmansupport.org>
- Please adopt free/libre formats like PDF, Org, LaTeX, ODF, Opus, WebM and 7z.
- Libre apps for AOSP (Replicant, LineageOS, etc.) and Android: F-Droid
- https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html "What is free software?"

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[tomas]

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On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 08:58:06PM -0300, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote:
> Hi.  I love digital ethics, GNU and Emacs!  Which keyboard-driven
> hackable window manager (WM) or desktop environment (DE) do you
> recommend?  I currently use GNOME 3 DE.  Years ago I used Enlightenment,
> Xfce and Fluxbox but then I migrated to GNOME to learn a good libre and
> user friendly DE so I could assist unskilled users such as my family.

[...]

I did the whole tour (it has been a long ride), starting with TWM (gah!)
and Olwm, GWM, some Fvwm incarnations, Gnome (up to 2-ish).

When I was seeing the direction Gnome was taking, I wandered away, homeless
tried blackbox, awesome (Lua scriptability was attractive, docs were so-so,
tiling not my cup of tea), you name it.

Since about ten years (take or give) it's Fvwm. I don't think I'm changing
again.

It does what it says on the tin. It's scriptable. It doesn't overreach.
It works very well with "point to focus" (most of the above say they do,
but it's very clear their developers don't quite use it).

And... the most important to me: it treats their users as grown-up people,
which I appreciate.

It takes a bit of effort to wrap one's head around its config language,
but then It Just Works. It has man pages!

It's *not* a desktop environment, which I appreciate, too.

Most of the key mapping stuff (Compose, language layers) I leave to X;
I reserve one modifier for the WM (the "Windows" key, duh) for the WM to
start important apps (Emacs, Xterm, what not) and move across workspaces
and pages.

But I'm weird.

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

tomas wrote:

> But I'm weird.

I don't think so. Or maybe. Why?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Tassilo Horn]

"Jorge P. de Morais Neto" <jorge+list@disroot.org> writes:

> * Poll: best hackable and keyboard-driven WM/DE for sw freedom activists
>
> 1. i3/Sway

I won't say that sway is "best" but it works great for me.  With respect
to hackability, you can have great fun with its IPC interface where you
can listen to events and run commands as response.  There are many sway
IPC libs for all popular languages.  I use Rust for my
do-stuff-with-sway-ipc incarnation swayr:

  https://sr.ht/~tsdh/swayr/

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Jude DaShiell]

stump-wm since it's written in lisp might be a possibility.


On Fri, 5 Nov 2021, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> "Jorge P. de Morais Neto" <jorge+list@disroot.org> writes:
>
> > * Poll: best hackable and keyboard-driven WM/DE for sw freedom activists
> >
> > 1. i3/Sway
>
> I won't say that sway is "best" but it works great for me.  With respect
> to hackability, you can have great fun with its IPC interface where you
> can listen to events and run commands as response.  There are many sway
> IPC libs for all popular languages.  I use Rust for my
> do-stuff-with-sway-ipc incarnation swayr:
>
>   https://sr.ht/~tsdh/swayr/
>
> Bye,
> Tassilo
>
>

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Vegard Vesterheim]

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 04:04:59 -0400 Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:

> stump-wm since it's written in lisp might be a possibility.

I am using the sawfish window manager:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawfish_(window_manager)

"Sawfish uses a Lisp-like scripting language, rep, for all of its code
and configuration, making it particularly easy to customize, or program
many kinds of behavior, responding to window creation, deletion, or any
other changes. There is a GUI configuration utility for users who do not
wish to edit configuration files directly."

There are also some emacs integrations, controlling sawfish from within
emacs and vice versa.

-- 
Vennlig hilsen/Best regards
Vegard Vesterheim
Senior Software engineer
+47 48 11 98 98
vegard.vesterheim@uninett.no

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Eric S Fraga]

exwm for me on almost all systems I use, especially multi-monitor
setups, and stumpwm when exwm not possible/feasible/effective.

I will worry about Wayland when I have to.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.60 & org 9.5 on Debian 11.1

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Eric S Fraga wrote:

> exwm for me on almost all systems I use, especially
> multi-monitor setups, and stumpwm when exwm not
> possible/feasible/effective.

If you love Emacs and use Emacs in X then yes ... try it.

I use Emacs in a Linux VT but if I didn't, who knows.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Samuel Banya]

Hey there,

'exwm' is great if you're into Emacs, but I would personally use this on a 'notebook' type laptop only where you use Emacs the most.

I think if you're a casual user that likes simple Desktop environments like Openbox, Fluxbox, etc, you can choose to run 'exwm' later when you boot up Emacs and 'switch into it', which is kind of neat to force 'exwm' to take over as your window manager.

But to be honest, on machines where I have Openbox + Tint2 on it, I don't use 'exwm'. Its a bit awkward on those kind of 'Just Works' desktops where you just want a browser, some GUI apps, a terminal etc. Depends on what you like though, as I like getting some older machines from eBay, putting some cool Linux distros on it, and using them as daily drivers for different uses, ex: An 'art machine' for Krita, GIMP, and Inkscape, vs. another machine used for Emacs note taking, etc.

I use 'exwm' primarily on my Linux laptops though since I don't like most Window Managers I've tried. I would probably try SpectWM later on though but we'll see.

NOTE: There are a few weird things for 'exwm' that I had to deal with. If you want to use a GUI program like Firefox, you have to keep in mind that its running in 'line' mode, so you constantly have to spam 'C-c C-q' before any normal keybinding you might know like 'C-t' (Control + Tab) to open up a new tab in Firefox.

This part is a bit annoying. I would want to somehow get it to the point where I can modify segments in Firefox or do visual highlighting somehow but I don't know if that's possible with Firefox + 'exwm'. I've heard 'nyqt' browser is better for the 'exwm' workflow.

Hope this helps, and enjoy the journey.

If you need to steal someone Emacs config for 'exwm', you can check out mine if you get stuck as it will involve some manipulation of the init system I believe for xorg:
NOTE: I have a 'literate' config meaning I use an .org file for my config, so don't get confused by this. Its actually neat once you figure it out, so I'll link the entire section plus subsections for reference:
https://git.musimatic.xyz/dotfiles/tree/emacs/.emacs.d
https://git.musimatic.xyz/dotfiles/tree/emacs/.emacs.d/configuration.org
https://git.musimatic.xyz/dotfiles/tree/emacs/.emacs.d/init.el

Sincerely,

Sam

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, at 7:58 PM, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote:
> Hi.  I love digital ethics, GNU and Emacs!  Which keyboard-driven
> hackable window manager (WM) or desktop environment (DE) do you
> recommend?  I currently use GNOME 3 DE.  Years ago I used Enlightenment,
> Xfce and Fluxbox but then I migrated to GNOME to learn a good libre and
> user friendly DE so I could assist unskilled users such as my family.
> 
> I have now reconsidered---I want a hackable keyboard-driven WM or DE.
> I'll keep GNOME installed as plan B for difficulties with the hacker WM.
> Also, once in a while I will use GNOME just to preserve useful knowledge
> for assisting unskilled users.
> 
> I also want to remap keys, so for example in IceCat and Gajim C-n will
> mean <down> as in Emacs.  I have read this is easy on StumpWM, I hope it
> is also easy in i3 and EXWM.  I would also prefer a WM with a system
> tray, so it is easy (for example) to check for new messages on Gajim.
> 
> So far I am divided between i3 and EXWM.  EXWM would likely be cooler
> and more hackable but lacks Wayland support, and Wayland is the near
> future.  I don't want to have to learn another hacker WM for Wayland.
> So the leading candidate is i3, since Sway implements i3 concepts on
> Wayland.  I read it even accepts i3 config files.  Thus:
> 
> * Poll: best hackable and keyboard-driven WM/DE for sw freedom activists
> 
> 1. i3/Sway
> 2. EXWM
> 3. Ratpoison
> 4. StumpWM
> 5. Awesome
> 6. bspwm
> 7. xmonad
> 8. GNOME
> 9. Mate
> 10. XFCE
> 11. LXDE
> 12. Other---specify:
> 
> Should support key remapping and be future-proof (Wayland).  Ideally
> hackable in Elisp, Guile Scheme, Common Lisp or Bash; Python and C OK.
> Low resource usage is desirable but good features take priority.
> 
> Regards
> 
> -- 
> - Many people hate injustice but few check the facts; this causes more
>   injustice.  Ask me about <https://stallmansupport.org>
> - Please adopt free/libre formats like PDF, Org, LaTeX, ODF, Opus, WebM and 7z.
> - Libre apps for AOSP (Replicant, LineageOS, etc.) and Android: F-Droid
> - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html "What is free software?"
> 
> 

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Samuel Banya wrote:

> Openbox

A bit sluggish IME compared to the smaller/snappier ones.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Samuel Banya]

Forgot to mention, Openbox is pretty sick too once you figure out the config sections on how to add your own keybindings to launch xorg programs on Linux, here's my Openbox config if you need it since its a bit of a daunting .xml file:
https://git.musimatic.xyz/dotfiles/tree/openbox_ThinkpadT440s

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, at 7:58 PM, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote:
> Hi.  I love digital ethics, GNU and Emacs!  Which keyboard-driven
> hackable window manager (WM) or desktop environment (DE) do you
> recommend?  I currently use GNOME 3 DE.  Years ago I used Enlightenment,
> Xfce and Fluxbox but then I migrated to GNOME to learn a good libre and
> user friendly DE so I could assist unskilled users such as my family.
> 
> I have now reconsidered---I want a hackable keyboard-driven WM or DE.
> I'll keep GNOME installed as plan B for difficulties with the hacker WM.
> Also, once in a while I will use GNOME just to preserve useful knowledge
> for assisting unskilled users.
> 
> I also want to remap keys, so for example in IceCat and Gajim C-n will
> mean <down> as in Emacs.  I have read this is easy on StumpWM, I hope it
> is also easy in i3 and EXWM.  I would also prefer a WM with a system
> tray, so it is easy (for example) to check for new messages on Gajim.
> 
> So far I am divided between i3 and EXWM.  EXWM would likely be cooler
> and more hackable but lacks Wayland support, and Wayland is the near
> future.  I don't want to have to learn another hacker WM for Wayland.
> So the leading candidate is i3, since Sway implements i3 concepts on
> Wayland.  I read it even accepts i3 config files.  Thus:
> 
> * Poll: best hackable and keyboard-driven WM/DE for sw freedom activists
> 
> 1. i3/Sway
> 2. EXWM
> 3. Ratpoison
> 4. StumpWM
> 5. Awesome
> 6. bspwm
> 7. xmonad
> 8. GNOME
> 9. Mate
> 10. XFCE
> 11. LXDE
> 12. Other---specify:
> 
> Should support key remapping and be future-proof (Wayland).  Ideally
> hackable in Elisp, Guile Scheme, Common Lisp or Bash; Python and C OK.
> Low resource usage is desirable but good features take priority.
> 
> Regards
> 
> -- 
> - Many people hate injustice but few check the facts; this causes more
>   injustice.  Ask me about <https://stallmansupport.org>
> - Please adopt free/libre formats like PDF, Org, LaTeX, ODF, Opus, WebM and 7z.
> - Libre apps for AOSP (Replicant, LineageOS, etc.) and Android: F-Droid
> - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html "What is free software?"
> 
> 

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Samuel Banya]

Also, if you suck at 'xrandr' like me, you can always use 'arandr' to view your multiple monitor setups and save an 'xrandr' config accordingly for multiple monitor setups:
https://christian.amsuess.com/tools/arandr/

Sure, you can then learn the config syntax and go from there, but I get too frustrated at times with stuff like this when I wish Linux would "just work" with this kind of mentality in mind. However, that's the fun part too as you kind of make it into your own thing.

Not sure about everyone else on here, but even when I like minimal DE or WM setups, I just expect a couple things to work on Linux as a user:
- Sound ('pavucontrol' if I'm using PulseAudio)
- Video ('arandr' for multiple monitors)
- Networking ('nmtui')

For this reason alone, I actually prefer GUI or curses type apps for these three components as its always a pain to try to configure either of these just to get a basic OS working when it should just work.

I know that's a bit of a segway, but it might help you with your WM choice and config.

Sincerely,

Sam

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, at 7:58 PM, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote:
> Hi.  I love digital ethics, GNU and Emacs!  Which keyboard-driven
> hackable window manager (WM) or desktop environment (DE) do you
> recommend?  I currently use GNOME 3 DE.  Years ago I used Enlightenment,
> Xfce and Fluxbox but then I migrated to GNOME to learn a good libre and
> user friendly DE so I could assist unskilled users such as my family.
> 
> I have now reconsidered---I want a hackable keyboard-driven WM or DE.
> I'll keep GNOME installed as plan B for difficulties with the hacker WM.
> Also, once in a while I will use GNOME just to preserve useful knowledge
> for assisting unskilled users.
> 
> I also want to remap keys, so for example in IceCat and Gajim C-n will
> mean <down> as in Emacs.  I have read this is easy on StumpWM, I hope it
> is also easy in i3 and EXWM.  I would also prefer a WM with a system
> tray, so it is easy (for example) to check for new messages on Gajim.
> 
> So far I am divided between i3 and EXWM.  EXWM would likely be cooler
> and more hackable but lacks Wayland support, and Wayland is the near
> future.  I don't want to have to learn another hacker WM for Wayland.
> So the leading candidate is i3, since Sway implements i3 concepts on
> Wayland.  I read it even accepts i3 config files.  Thus:
> 
> * Poll: best hackable and keyboard-driven WM/DE for sw freedom activists
> 
> 1. i3/Sway
> 2. EXWM
> 3. Ratpoison
> 4. StumpWM
> 5. Awesome
> 6. bspwm
> 7. xmonad
> 8. GNOME
> 9. Mate
> 10. XFCE
> 11. LXDE
> 12. Other---specify:
> 
> Should support key remapping and be future-proof (Wayland).  Ideally
> hackable in Elisp, Guile Scheme, Common Lisp or Bash; Python and C OK.
> Low resource usage is desirable but good features take priority.
> 
> Regards
> 
> -- 
> - Many people hate injustice but few check the facts; this causes more
>   injustice.  Ask me about <https://stallmansupport.org>
> - Please adopt free/libre formats like PDF, Org, LaTeX, ODF, Opus, WebM and 7z.
> - Libre apps for AOSP (Replicant, LineageOS, etc.) and Android: F-Droid
> - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html "What is free software?"
> 
> 

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Samuel Banya wrote:

> Not sure about everyone else on here, but even when I like
> minimal DE or WM setups, I just expect a couple things to work
> on Linux as a user:
> - Sound ('pavucontrol' if I'm using PulseAudio)
> - Video ('arandr' for multiple monitors)
> - Networking ('nmtui')
>
> For this reason alone, I actually prefer GUI or curses type
> apps for these three components as its always a pain to try
> to configure either of these just to get a basic OS working
> when it should just work.

But what has this to do with GUI, I also want them and
everything else to work out of the box.

Hm ... take a look here, with all the files that start with "audio"

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/

maybe you are right? :P

No, not really, I have just accumulated that over the years.
When I install Debian multimedia and internet works fine out
of the box.

I even have an Elisp audio file BTW. But not related to
software config:

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/audio.el

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Samuel Banya]

The reason I mentioned the audio, video, and networking is that if you're anything like me, you're a person that primarily wants to use Emacs as the end-all-be-all solution to a lot of things. Therefore, I don't want something as trivial as the OS I'm using to be in the way. I want it to do its job and so I don't have to worry about it not working.

To be fair, I just want to boot into Emacs and I'd be happy. Personally, anything that can run a modern browser like Firefox, a X11 terminal if needed, and Emacs, is cool with me.

Hope that clarifies things as it DOES take into consideration of what specific WM or DE you use since in this respect, a DE might be better in these cases so you can just concentrate on Emacs and "Getting Things Done".

Sincerely,

Sam

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, at 10:13 PM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:
> Samuel Banya wrote:
> 
> > Not sure about everyone else on here, but even when I like
> > minimal DE or WM setups, I just expect a couple things to work
> > on Linux as a user:
> > - Sound ('pavucontrol' if I'm using PulseAudio)
> > - Video ('arandr' for multiple monitors)
> > - Networking ('nmtui')
> >
> > For this reason alone, I actually prefer GUI or curses type
> > apps for these three components as its always a pain to try
> > to configure either of these just to get a basic OS working
> > when it should just work.
> 
> But what has this to do with GUI, I also want them and
> everything else to work out of the box.
> 
> Hm ... take a look here, with all the files that start with "audio"
> 
>   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/
> 
> maybe you are right? :P
> 
> No, not really, I have just accumulated that over the years.
> When I install Debian multimedia and internet works fine out
> of the box.
> 
> I even have an Elisp audio file BTW. But not related to
> software config:
> 
>   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/audio.el
> 
> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
> 
> 
> 

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Samuel Banya wrote:

> The reason I mentioned the audio, video, and networking is
> that if you're anything like me, you're a person that
> primarily wants to use Emacs as the end-all-be-all solution
> to a lot of things. Therefore, I don't want something as
> trivial as the OS I'm using to be in the way. I want it to
> do its job and so I don't have to worry about it
> not working.
>
> To be fair, I just want to boot into Emacs and I'd be happy.
> Personally, anything that can run a modern browser like
> Firefox, a X11 terminal if needed, and Emacs, is cool
> with me.
>
> Hope that clarifies things [...]

No, what do you mean?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote:

> * Poll: best hackable and keyboard-driven WM/DE for sw
> freedom activists
>
>  1. i3/Sway
>  2. EXWM
>  3. Ratpoison
>  4. StumpWM
>  5. Awesome
>  6. bspwm
>  7. xmonad
>  8. GNOME
>  9. Mate
> 10. XFCE
> 11. LXDE
> 12. Other---specify:

I don't use a DE but as WM I use openbsd-cwm (which is
available on Linux as well, from for example the Debian
package 'cwm').

I like it because of the keys which are configurable from
a text file as it should be, and you are not only able to
execute the WM's own commands that way but also arbitrary
shell commands.

Here [last] is my conf file which isn't extensive but shows
both those cases (the quotation mark syntax for shell
commands). So far, it has been all I needed.

Here is everything else I use [1] and here is how it is
launched in .xinitrc [2]. Note the picom compositor, I was
told - and I think it's true - having it on makes it faster to
switch between windows in X. For example, between the xterm
and mpv windows, something that happens thru the WM shortcuts.
So no mouse needed, ever.

[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/SOFTWARE
[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.xinitrc

# -*- conf -*-
#
# this file:
#   http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.cwmrc
#   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.cwmrc

color activeborder black

unbind-key all

bind-key   M-p   window-rcycle
bind-key   M-n   window-cycle

bind-key   C-r   restart

bind-key   M-j   "chvt 5"
bind-key   M-l   "chvt 1"
bind-key   M-e   "chvt 1"

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Teemu Likonen]

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* 2021-11-04 20:58:06-0300, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote:

> Which keyboard-driven hackable window manager (WM) or desktop
> environment (DE) do you recommend?

KDE Plasma. Several years I used I3 (which is great) but eventually got
tired of hacking with desktop integration issues. For example, default
applications, general settings for applications or system notifications.
There are solutions and work-around options but I got tired of those
"ah, this doesn't work anymore; I need to add one more hack."

In KDE's or Plasma's history I skipped from version 3.5 to 5.x something
and used Ratpoison, StumpWM, Awesome, Herbstluftwm, I3 between those.
I'm not slower or less productive with the Plasma desktop. It has plenty
of predefined key bindings for handling windows, and all keys are
configurable. In the end it's probably even more powerful than those
power user window managers that claim to be only keyboard driven. Plasma
has full keyboard control too but also all the desktop integration.

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 4E1055DC84E9DFF613D78557719D69D324539450

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Jude DaShiell]

KDE plasma has no screen reader capability and likely won't have in the
future.  Those iso builders for kde plasma don't put the entire gnome
accessibility stack on their isos so orca which might work inside kde
plasma has to be installed by a sighted installer along with all of its
dependencies once a kde plasma install is completed for a blind computer
user.  For that reason, kde plasma is not in the same class as emacspeak
whether or not kde plasma is on a computer exhibited at the Smithsonian
Museum.



On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, Teemu Likonen wrote:

> * 2021-11-04 20:58:06-0300, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote:
>
> > Which keyboard-driven hackable window manager (WM) or desktop
> > environment (DE) do you recommend?
>
> KDE Plasma. Several years I used I3 (which is great) but eventually got
> tired of hacking with desktop integration issues. For example, default
> applications, general settings for applications or system notifications.
> There are solutions and work-around options but I got tired of those
> "ah, this doesn't work anymore; I need to add one more hack."
>
> In KDE's or Plasma's history I skipped from version 3.5 to 5.x something
> and used Ratpoison, StumpWM, Awesome, Herbstluftwm, I3 between those.
> I'm not slower or less productive with the Plasma desktop. It has plenty
> of predefined key bindings for handling windows, and all keys are
> configurable. In the end it's probably even more powerful than those
> power user window managers that claim to be only keyboard driven. Plasma
> has full keyboard control too but also all the desktop integration.
>
>

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Jean Louis]

* Jorge P. de Morais Neto <jorge+list@disroot.org> [2021-11-05 02:59]:
> Hi.  I love digital ethics, GNU and Emacs!  Which keyboard-driven
> hackable window manager (WM) or desktop environment (DE) do you
> recommend?

IceWM you can operate by keyboard, it is fastest that I know, it has
system tray.

EXWM is fully keyboard driven.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Poll: best hackable window manager or DE for Emacs-loving freedom activists

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> Hi. I love digital ethics, GNU and Emacs!
>> Which keyboard-driven hackable window manager (WM) or
>> desktop environment (DE) do you recommend?
>
> IceWM you can operate by keyboard, it is fastest that
> I know, it has system tray.
>
> EXWM is fully keyboard driven.

Yeah ... and if they aren't, or don't have a man page, or has
a splash screen that cannot be disabled, or uses the Comic
Sans Vera 16pt font by default ... sure enough, that means YOU
are using the software.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal