installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[imputerate]

fellow emaculates;

per system > admin > synaptic pkg manager:                                               
replaced emacs 21 with emacs 22 [-gtk as the essential pkg]

the remove/install went well, i think; one item demanded that
i opt for "complete" removal [incl. config files]; so i did;
the final lines of the log were:

Setting up emacs22-common (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...
Setting up emacs22-bin-common (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...
Setting up emacs22-gtk (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...
Byte-compiling add-on packages, please wait... done.
Setting up emacs (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...

ALSO:

 i assume emacsen-common 1.4.17 stayed as it was;

BUT:

 there were these warning lines earlier on in the log:

 dpkg - warning: while removing emacs21-common, directory
`/etc/emacs21/site-start.d' not empty so not removed.

 dpkg - warning: while removing emacs21-common, directory `/etc/emacs21'
not empty so not \ removed.
-----------------------------------
here's what's in /etc now;

/etc/emacs21/site-start.d# ls
20gnus-init.el
/etc/emacs22/site-start.d# ls
00debian-vars.elc

i haven't rebooted since the "upgrade";

can i rely on emacs22 to:

go to /etc/emacs22 and find 00debian-vars.elc,

instead of:

going to /etc/emacs21 and running 20gnus-init.el?

or should i expunge everything in /etc/emacs21?

thanks, imputerate

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installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[imputerate]

 per system > admin > synaptic pkg
manager:
i replaced emacs 21 with emacs 22 [-gtk is the essential
pkg]

the remove/install went well, i think; one item demanded that
i opt for "complete" removal [incl. config files]; so i did;
the final lines of the log were:

Setting up emacs22-common (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...
Setting up emacs22-bin-common (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...
Setting up emacs22-gtk (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...
Byte-compiling add-on packages, please wait... done.
Setting up emacs (22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1) ...

ALSO:

 i assume emacsen-common 1.4.17 stayed as it was;

BUT:

 there were these warning lines earlier on in the log:

 dpkg - warning: while removing emacs21-common, directory
`/etc/emacs21/site-start.d' not empty so not removed.

 dpkg - warning: while removing emacs21-common, directory `/etc/
emacs21' not empty so not \ removed.
-----------------------------------


here's what's in /etc now;

/etc/emacs21/site-start.d# ls
20gnus-init.el
/etc/emacs22/site-start.d# ls
00debian-vars.elc

i haven't rebooted since the "upgrade";

can i rely on emacs22 to:

go to /etc/emacs22 and find 00debian-vars.elc,

instead of:

going to /etc/emacs21 and running 20gnus-init.el?

or should i expunge everything in /etc/emacs21?

thanks, imputerate

Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 31.08.2007 um 03:33 schrieb imputerate:

> can i rely on emacs22 to:
>
> go to /etc/emacs22 and find 00debian-vars.elc,
>
> instead of:
>
> going to /etc/emacs21 and running 20gnus-init.el?

Launch it and then check the variable load-path – it won't destroy  
your system. If load-path contains /etc/emacs21 and the GNU Emacs 21  
files are different from those of version 22, then it's probably  
better to send a message to the Ubuntu company and to debian, since  
one such file is named 00debian-vars.elc. The other file is *not* a  
part of GNU Emacs.

Using a statement like this one

	(defadvice load (before debug-log activate)
	  (message "(Tipp von Kai G) Lade jetzt: %s" (ad-get-arg 0)))

in the system init file can make GNU Emacs to show all files it has  
loaded afterwards.


Anyway, it seems that Ubuntu linux is buggy when it can't remove what  
it has installed before. A bug report seems to be recommended.

--
Greetings

   Pete

                   Sorry my terrible English, my native language Lisp!

Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() imputerate <imputerate@puteracy.com>
() Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:24:57 -0700 (PDT)

   can i rely on emacs22 to:

   go to /etc/emacs22 and find 00debian-vars.elc,

   instead of:

   going to /etc/emacs21 and running 20gnus-init.el?

if your system has strace installed, you can write the script:

 #!/bin/sh
 exec strace -f -e open "$@" 2>&1 | grep -v o.such.file

into (remove leading space from both lines) /tmp/st and then:

 $ chmod +x /tmp/st
 $ /tmp/st emacs -batch -kill

doing this will show all files that "emacs -batch -kill" opens.
change the command to use the correct emacs or do other stuff
as desired.  in this way, you can see what is really going on.

thi

Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[Tim X]

Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes:

> Am 31.08.2007 um 03:33 schrieb imputerate:
>
>> can i rely on emacs22 to:
>>
>> go to /etc/emacs22 and find 00debian-vars.elc,
>>
>> instead of:
>>
>> going to /etc/emacs21 and running 20gnus-init.el?
>

If emacs 22 is from a deb package, yes, you should be able to expect it
will find the correct init files. Folow Pete's suggestions to verify. 

> Launch it and then check the variable load-path – it won't destroy  your
> system. If load-path contains /etc/emacs21 and the GNU Emacs 21  files are
> different from those of version 22, then it's probably  better to send a
> message to the Ubuntu company and to debian, since  one such file is named
> 00debian-vars.elc. The other file is *not* a  part of GNU Emacs.
>
> Using a statement like this one
>
> 	(defadvice load (before debug-log activate)
> 	  (message "(Tipp von Kai G) Lade jetzt: %s" (ad-get-arg 0)))
>
> in the system init file can make GNU Emacs to show all files it has  loaded
> afterwards.
>
>
> Anyway, it seems that Ubuntu linux is buggy when it can't remove what  it
> has installed before. A bug report seems to be recommended.
>

This may not be a bug. I'm assuming that ubuntu follows the Debian policy
(I run Debian and have never run ubuntu). One of the nice things about the
Debian approach is that you can have multiple versions of emacs installed
at the same time. I currently have deb packages for emacs 21 and emacs 22
and a recent emacs CVS snampshot of 22.1.50.1. 

Debian modifies the startup.el file that is part of Emacs and adds a
defconstant called debian-emacs-flavor - all .deb emacs packages should set
this to an appropriate value (i.e. emacs21 or emacs22 or even emacs20). The
startup.el file is also modified to load the /etc/emacs/site-start.d and
/etc/<debian-emacs-flavor>/site-start.d directories (and I think similarly
named ones of /usr/local) as well as setup the paths for the compiled
versions (one of the nice things about the debian setup is that it keeps
different trees of byte compiled elisp according to the version of emacs
they were compiled with).

so, the first thing I'd check is see what value debian-emacs-flavor is set
to. If it is emacs22, then I think you will find things work fine. If you
have built emacs 22 from sources, you need to modify the startup.el file to
add the debian stuff and then re-build. 

Note also that generally, the debian package system will not remove a
directory it has created if either additonal files have been added that
were not added by a package or if the files have been modified. Generally,
apt will give a warning about this, but it can easily be missed. Also, keep
in mind that Debian has two levels of package removal. If you just remove a
package, it will usually leave the config files in place (theory being you
may add the package back in the future). To completely remove the package
and all config files, you need to do a 'purge' in addition to a remove. 

HTH

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[imputerate]

Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 31.08.2007 um 03:33 schrieb imputerate:
> 
>> can i rely on emacs22 to:
>>
>> go to /etc/emacs22 and find 00debian-vars.elc,
>>
>> instead of:
>>
>> going to /etc/emacs21 and running 20gnus-init.el?
> 
> Launch it and then check the variable load-path – it won't destroy  
> your system. If load-path contains /etc/emacs21 
> 
> Peter, thanks; in an emacs buffer i typed:
>  `M-x describe-variable > load-path' and got:
> 
> ("/usr/share/emacs22/site-lisp/dictionaries-common" "/etc/emacs22"                        
> "/etc/emacs" "/usr/local/share/emacs/22.1/site-lisp"                                      
> "/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp" "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/site-lisp"                      
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/site-lisp/dictionaries-common"                                     
> "/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp" "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/leim"                                 
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp" "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/url"                             
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/textmodes"                                                    
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/progmodes"                                                    
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/play"                                                         
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/obsolete" "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/net"                    
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/mh-e" "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/mail"                       
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/language"                                                     
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/international"                                                
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/gnus" "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/eshell"                     
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/erc"                                                          
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/emulation"                                                    
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/emacs-lisp"                                                   
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/calendar"                                                     
> "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/lisp/calc" "/usr/share/emacs/22.1/leim")  
> 
> so i guess my emacs22 knows how to avoid bad company;
> ----------------------------------
> 
> i'm still working on your next piece of advice [i don't know which the
> "system init file" is, and although i understand the second line of code,
> i don't see how to adapt it, i.e.  fill in the concrete specifics for my
> situation]               
> 
> Using a statement like this one
> 
> 	(defadvice load (before debug-log activate)
> 	  (message "(Tipp von Kai G) Lade jetzt: %s" (ad-get-arg 0)))
> 
> in the system init file can make GNU Emacs to show all files it has  
> loaded afterwards.
> 
> thanks again; peter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> help-gnu-emacs mailing list
> help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs
> 
> 

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Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[imputerate]

If emacs 22 is from a deb package, yes, you should be able to expect it
will find the correct init files. Folow Pete's suggestions to verify. 

SINCE this was a newbie-friendly synaptic upgrade, i guess it was a deb
package, and, yes, as Pete's load-path trace suggests, emacs found its way.

> Anyway, it seems that Ubuntu linux is buggy when it can't remove what  it
> has installed before. A bug report seems to be recommended.

This may not be a bug. I'm assuming that ubuntu follows the Debian policy
(I run Debian and have never run ubuntu). One of the nice things about the
Debian approach is that you can have multiple versions of emacs installed
at the same time. I currently have deb packages for emacs 21 and emacs 22
and a recent emacs CVS snampshot of 22.1.50.1. 

RE: site-start.d files: these are the ones on the ubuntu box:                             
                                                                                          
/etc/emacs/site-start.d                                                                   
/etc/emacs/site-start.d/00debian-vars.el                                                  
/etc/emacs/site-start.d/50dictionaries-common.el                                          
/etc/emacs21/site-start.d                                                                 
/etc/emacs21/site-start.d/20gnus-init.el                                                  
/etc/emacs22/site-start.d                                                                 
/etc/emacs22/site-start.d/00debian-vars.elc                                               
                                                                                          
                                                                                          
 NB /usr/local/etc/ is empty:                                                             
root@hodgson-desktop:/usr/local/etc# ls                                                   
root@hodgson-desktop:/usr/local/etc#                                                      
                                                              
 Tim, that was an instructive tour; thanks; peter                           

                                                                                         


                                                                            
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Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[imputerate]

Thien-Thi Nguyen-6 wrote:
> 
> () imputerate <imputerate@puteracy.com>
> () Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:24:57 -0700 (PDT)
> 
>    can i rely on emacs22 to:
> 
>    go to /etc/emacs22 and find 00debian-vars.elc,
> 
>    instead of:
> 
>    going to /etc/emacs21 and running 20gnus-init.el?
> 
> if your system has strace installed, you can write the script:
> 
>  #!/bin/sh
>  exec strace -f -e open "$@" 2>&1 | grep -v o.such.file
> 
> into (remove leading space from both lines) /tmp/st and then:
> 
>  $ chmod +x /tmp/st
>  $ /tmp/st emacs -batch -kill
> 
> doing this will show all files that "emacs -batch -kill" opens.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Thi, i couldn't chmod a file in /tmp [i.e. not ~/tmp] as user ['$'], so i
> set things up as root;
> and then:
> root@hodgson-desktop:~# /tmp/st emacs -batch -kill > /tmp/st.o
> 
> ALSO, i didn't know if i should have substituted something like: 
> 
> /etc/emacs22/00debian-vars.elc
> 
> for: 
> 
> "o.such.file"
> 
> man strace was plenty informative, but didn't help me there;
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> all the operations looked the same, with two kinds of ARGUMENTS:
> 
> open("/etc/passwd", O_RDONLY)           = 3                                     
> open("/usr/share/emacs/22.1/site-lisp/subdirs.el", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) =
> 3    
> 
> for some files, there were three tries:
> 
> open("/usr/share/emacs/22.1/site-lisp/subdirs.el", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) =
> 3    
> open("/usr/share/emacs/22.1/site-lisp/subdirs.el", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) =
> 3    
> open("/usr/share/emacs/22.1/site-lisp/subdirs.el", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) =
> 3    
> 
> this time, did the source code load, after all?:
> 
> open("/etc/emacs/site-start.d/50dictionaries-common.el",
> O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) \
> = 3                                                                             
> open("/etc/emacs/site-start.d/50dictionaries-common.el",
> O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) \
> = 3                                                                             
> Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50dictionaries-common.el (source)...            
> open("/etc/emacs/site-start.d/50dictionaries-common.el",
> O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) \
> = 3
> 
> this was the only time the errorno was '4':
> 
>  open("/var/cache/dictionaries-common/emacsen-ispell-default.el",
> O_RDONLY|O_LAR\
> GEFILE) = 4                                                                     
> open("/var/cache/dictionaries-common/emacsen-ispell-default.el",
> O_RDONLY|O_LAR\
> GEFILE) = 4                                                                     
> Loading /var/cache/dictionaries-common/emacsen-ispell-default.el
> (source)...    
> open("/var/cache/dictionaries-common/emacsen-ispell-default.el",
> O_RDONLY|O_LAR\
> GEFILE) = 4                                                                     
>                                                                             
> 
> 
> a search for '21' turned up nothing, which is good [i.e. emacs21 is out of
> the picture];
> 
> yikes; actually, my computer is freaking out; so i'll sign off and reboot;
> peter
> 
> change the command to use the correct emacs or do other stuff
> as desired.  in this way, you can see what is really going on.
> 
> thi
> _______________________________________________
> help-gnu-emacs mailing list
> help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs
> 
> 

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Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[imputerate]

yikes; actually, my computer is freaking out; so i'll sign off and reboot;
peter

Thi, looks like all is well; rebooted and emacs is behaving now; 

so, i guess i shouldn't have just jumped into that strace thing, anyway, not
as root;

let me know if there's a simple way to redo the whole thing; it looked like
a good lesson;l

thanks, peter

change the command to use the correct emacs or do other stuff
as desired.  in this way, you can see what is really going on.

thi
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Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() imputerate <imputerate@puteracy.com>
() Sat, 1 Sep 2007 16:13:43 -0700 (PDT)

   Thi, looks like all is well; rebooted and emacs is
   behaving now;

   so, i guess i shouldn't have just jumped into that
   strace thing, anyway, not as root;

it's wise to avoid being root if possible.  you can
repeat the experiment in ~/tmp if that directory is
available.  (if not, just do "mkdir ~/tmp" and it will
appear.)

anyway, looks like the file you do not wish to be
loaded is indeed not loaded, so that's what's important
here.

as someone else pointed out, perhaps it's ok to leave
that file alone.  no big deal, no harm done, etc.

thi

Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[imputerate]

thi; would you take minute and go over the commands i issued to call strace;
did i get them right? was the output the expected one? what about the "load"
lines?



Thien-Thi Nguyen-6 wrote:
> 
> () imputerate <imputerate@puteracy.com>
> () Sat, 1 Sep 2007 16:13:43 -0700 (PDT)
> 
>    Thi, looks like all is well; rebooted and emacs is
>    behaving now;
> 
>    so, i guess i shouldn't have just jumped into that
>    strace thing, anyway, not as root;
> 
> it's wise to avoid being root if possible.  you can
> repeat the experiment in ~/tmp if that directory is
> available.  (if not, just do "mkdir ~/tmp" and it will
> appear.)
> 
> anyway, looks like the file you do not wish to be
> loaded is indeed not loaded, so that's what's important
> here.
> 
> as someone else pointed out, perhaps it's ok to leave
> that file alone.  no big deal, no harm done, etc.
> 
> thi
> _______________________________________________
> help-gnu-emacs mailing list
> help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs
> 
> 

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Re: installed 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty1, should i remove /etc/emacs21/site-start.d

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() imputerate <imputerate@puteracy.com>
() Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:07:11 -0700 (PDT)

   thi; would you take minute and go over the commands i issued to
   call strace; did i get them right? was the output the expected
   one? what about the "load" lines?

look, i'm an old dude who can't remember dow, moy, yoc, or just
plain epoch; you expect me to remember the POINT?!  :-/

i suggested the strace command to help you be able to diagnose
things yourself (so that you can be curmudgeonly standoffish to the
next generation, you see ;-).  the thinking is this:

 - strace insinuates itself between a program and the operating
   system API (aka "system calls"), reporting the arguments to the
   call and the return value in the format:

     FUNCTION (ARG0, ARG1, ...) => RETURN-VALUE

 - the "-e open" option restricts the tracing to the open(2) system
   call.  the paren-two-close means you can put the cursor on that
   word and type `M-x man RET RET' to see more info.  (try it!)

 - this means that for our purposes, FUNCTION will be "open", ARGn
   will include a filename, and RETURN-VALUE will be an integer (-1
   for problems or non-negative if All Goes Well).

 - the file descriptor is used for subsequent (progam level)
   processing, such as reading, writing, etc.  key concept: if
   there is no file descriptor there is no interaction!

 - we are all islands mucking around w/ magical trees that talk to
   each other.  we cannot talk to each other directly.  this may be
   saddening but it is also a challenge: how to know which way the
   wind blows for someone else's tree?  how indeed?!

i was hoping you would take the hint, but here is a more explicit
suggestion: apply the scientific method.  (a) what is it you want
to discover?  (b) what is the link between what you want to
discover and what you can observe?  (c) how can you provoke
behavior that can be observable?  (d) D is for DO AN EXPERIMENT!
(which you did, cool!)  (e) work "backwards" using the link (b)
to make a statement about your model of Reality.  (f) if you don't
achieve (a), no worries, try again from (c) or (b).

after some practice, the "backwards" in (e) will come more
naturally and you may feel it is more like "sideways" or
"upsidedown" or CURRENT-FAVORITE-PREPOSITION...  then you will be
able to rail on for half an hour, making a scotch-induced ass of
yourself in public in the name of helping others w/ their personal
emacs issues...  ah, life.

good luck!

thi