From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:05:06 +0800 Message-ID: <87mtilk50t.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87bkz3pltw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87pmnil4w0.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10645"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacsq , emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 20 15:06:16 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nLmqu-0002Vb-0r for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:06:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46776 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLmqs-00047r-Hk for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 09:06:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43292) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLmq8-0003w7-VJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 09:05:30 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.147]:41549) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLmq6-0000Xt-Pp for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 09:05:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1645365925; bh=2KjC0OUkgHlGb7go2bd/fyTMoPJSptgSGxmOjHsFRGU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=JE68ZpsMPExED9Geej/7mQD5QeZhbwqadaAUkNVm9+PuRPfqcFcqNsqcwZStTG76t6wnqrMNQwJ+L0ZjNuRVOKglqwMFCnxjHn9Z3EnYe/Z3x5BOsUyaP7bX7mwsw/kcPoj/7bsRyL+rJqkM5vV9OMqeyG6Lhhnjvbn9SM6GgGCteQSEAI2PT7oYD50XsITDcUA4JetvQfLlu54ztx1qdQVFsFrEGTRJJYfUS9+RV/BsXrlngCEWqb6YPcG0EqqfU+HSI5VIYA7fh52ZinFbLHGjSIgc6vA0ObgmJLbYe4Yh0ujF8G1Ar6YWEnX6oGkeW/4WkVXAy5VshJSmfDN1Iw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1645365925; bh=uLOOy98zngR4PnlRJCg3ssc/ZQX/RW5jUufjLc0mNYT=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=AzKf0oiadr/har99it0GLVT2C20dI7TvPUbh4/vQiGMQRKBbCyvV5kjvoTbniXzgmqWeKLJkSQDtklhqttfKY6v6WZUNAHzFdWqgGyZQOhyWOg8SJ29VfWLQvU6tDNh68+U/jbSZ6LIZ8kjVYqDI6mIlZq5kKjiUUgn5apY4mRQb48dIm0HVsrICjbtbhkiM9nxLscIYovePD0MJhpGjjjLuC2NgSHrLiwVR/W5gCEkaVy9MS+RoD3v96f7Kwf2qwqDSyANomLmce9W/eaNuNFtJjpjbxkfJccO+CkB1aKNkLe2Ys1Bwyx3cwQtuyShdHaI2ktk8k4dvBFLSYjifmA== X-YMail-OSG: uKVeYNMVM1m2.SWVGNr2H.U69_.0HuidM2r_4zIz0GBhTyQNViSrIrghx7IDoPO nL9yLmg59fHFP4lGvph3.n7I5UWy52hdQVXF.b44qgNGz7uIQ.KCLBm59v.4a5cHej2brHAIW5Sy Gj9JiRPrMuag9xk0hyrkaTxccyTRS3z8CxPmuGmmWj42ZUtDKrlCoRe.SMmU5AHrBl4w_rR9tZRL Yo3DbIFVecBWkU7sSeOPt.dQKoOQeSsZrKLktDefvu0qt26H_U4IB4YvdTvOeo6S4WAKoslU6Pa3 yJD8iim87fpUHhc7_c_qZBjP3UmW.UgzRws6O79HdSl1hyY91ktKojcS55zibZPUPDpveuJyfufV JpkWhafwvWN4Jedgbs.alMC0pEQGT8R2iVW8dPcOJoyObLR1y8WgseWoEL9bid.ouEMHbVzr_s8L v9l7sKcHm.0MQ.52HBVEc7lB.uiBOCT_g3ozmfF.0_9XQJgyLyLZX_EIKuI2zrTXfk6yC6NkoF9V w.0REeMhcqvCDklxf2D4QI9iDToB6NKPB1EyjSwiUjGgvFrTjTx0..hqQBsB4BjWC6fNXtBpkE2o fLrDkJAAlArbmy9IhwV5PXy9fnNLdg7QRge.Vi5u1j2WNQalGGAXlSPVObS8bfO1fckSuGFFhVTh VN8YIK9hn4wQEgEoWwyXKZag0JFgf8QqHKhs7JDdL2t.4cdLAwx7QBLYhaR5J3mcZB57UwdOC5G7 T4sJ8hYmq15BaJXS2xrrdm7X4.X8fDPsNT3AQe8M2X8idyMAwU3jSI39fiUfROCakmyTxGD2iBQj s8.Jkcek0HADH8fFzxVNWMmORR2HCXWXoQIwumC.A5 X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 14:05:25 +0000 Original-Received: by kubenode510.mail-prod1.omega.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9f3a0cc27dc689e9e8981d82924f7ce6; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 14:05:18 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Arthur Miller's message of "Sun, 20 Feb 2022 14:46:30 +0100") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.19797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.147; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:136064 Archived-At: Arthur Miller writes: > Is it? It is. > Several entire desktops and countless applications implemented with > Gtk for different OS:s certainly speak in favor of your arguments. Emacs is more complicated and demanding a program than most of those desktops and applications. For instance, they typically don't support connecting to and displaying windows on multiple displays from the same process. > Cetainly it must be problem to Gtk and someone elses incompetence, > can't be that Emacs is using it in a manner it wasn't supposed to be > used. So we should limit our features to what GTK provides? Just to name a few, that would entail removing support for multi-TTY, distinguishing "C-S-u" from "C-u", controlling the size of scroll bars, reliable control over frame size? If you want such an experience, by all means use the PGTK build. But those features are important to many other people, so we cannot rely on PGTK. > So Gtk should be designed as Haiku? Otherwise it is a bug? :) I'm not, but the problem has nothing to do with how Emacs handles the toolkit event loop. > You can either do as you do and consider a framework design to be a > bug because it does not fit into your wishful expectations I expect a toolkit which people expect to become the basis of the Emacs GUI to be designed suitably, which is hardly wishful thinking. > or you can recognize that the design does not fit a particular > application in this case Emacs. There is nothing wrong with that, none > framework is required to fit each and every use case in > existence. Emacs uses Gtk in a way it is not supposed to and that > creates some friction. Whether or not it's suitable for other applications, the friction between Emacs and GTK cannot be resolved, so that indeed makes GTK unsuitable as the sole window system for Emacs. > I don't understand why you need to blame that on Gtk? I am not even > very fond of Gtk myself, but there is no reason to be unfair. When a toolkit that is part of the GNU project makes deliberate design decisions which prevents it from being used to implement Emacs, I think it is quite right to complain. Especially when older versions of said toolkit used to work fine.