From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Should prefix variable be used in function argument list Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 06:14:52 +0200 Message-ID: <87k08la9j7.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87let3mrji.fsf@posteo.net> <874jzrbiew.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87k08na30p.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87bktymzks.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4236"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:GOcd9/tr4IBvDRyOAYTC9jyExLw= Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 10 06:16:14 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oAOMf-0000uS-3a for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 06:16:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38352 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAOMd-0000lZ-Mo for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 00:16:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59254) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAOLb-0000lH-PH for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 00:15:08 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:51042) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAOLX-0000D0-S6 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 00:15:07 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oAOLU-000A0v-Dz for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 06:15:00 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:138408 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic wrote: >> Check out the theory on MVC for why ... >> >> Check out the practice of annoying little Elisp pointers in >> help mode for why ... > > I would appreciate it if you could explain what you are > talking about instead of just insinuating points. MVC = Model View Control. Model is a word from OO theory, we would call it the program's state or maybe internals, logic. Yeah, what it is and how that works, basically. View = What you see, i.e. the part of the interface that's presented to you. Control = the interface from the other side, from you as a user Not unlike the Lisp REPL where R (read) would be control, E (eval) would be the logic acted upon the state, and P (print) would be what the user sees from his or her viewpoint. So these three (MVC) should be separated, modules. So translated to our case, and not in general but this specifically, it becomes the control has not one control to do something, it has two, one interactively and one non-interactively, and you have to think in terms of the program and Lisp environment, i.e. in the Model part of MVC how that would work differently and so. So you have Lisp in code, its makes up the model, but if the user do M-: and types some Lisp, that is actually _not_ part of the Model but is a part of, or an alternative interface. If your practical reasons one has to have two functions, one interactively and one non-interactively, what one can do is having another function, e.g. (bob) and that would in turn do either (goto-char (point-min)) or do it interactively if there was some very special situation that called for that. Such things can pe handled under the hood. But stuff that is intuitive to the user, like that, one can have that contra-intuitive and then hope that comments in the help should remedy that. >> Actually they are useful! So the annoyance should be >> directed at the practice which they try to correct at >> a later stage. That would be more fair. > > (Also, why do you always just respond to the list and don't > CC the person you are responding too) Often the sad truth is, they just can't handle the truth. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal