* vterm and Meta? @ 2023-08-01 11:55 hw 2023-08-01 12:12 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-01 19:01 ` Akib Azmain Turja 0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-01 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi, I'm trying out vterm and it turns out that I can't use the ESC key when within a vterm buffer: i. e. I don't have the meta key anymore because that gets sent to the terminal rather than emacs. According to [1], I could maybe remove the ESC key from vterm-mode-map --- but it seems desirable to be able to use the ESC key for programs that might run in vterm. How do you deal with this? Do you use another key for the meta key other programs are less likely to make use of than the ESC key? [1]: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm#shell-side-configuration ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 11:55 vterm and Meta? hw @ 2023-08-01 12:12 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-01 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-01 19:01 ` Akib Azmain Turja 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-01 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw, help-gnu-emacs Hi, Are you using emacs in a terminal? If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and that works in vterm. If you don't usually run programs using the Esc key in vterm, you can unbind it and send it with vterm-send-next-key when necessary. Best wishes, Thibaut On 01/08/2023 13:55, hw wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying out vterm and it turns out that I can't use the ESC key > when within a vterm buffer: i. e. I don't have the meta key anymore > because that gets sent to the terminal rather than emacs. > > According to [1], I could maybe remove the ESC key from vterm-mode-map > --- but it seems desirable to be able to use the ESC key for programs > that might run in vterm. > > How do you deal with this? Do you use another key for the meta key > other programs are less likely to make use of than the ESC key? > > > [1]: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm#shell-side-configuration > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 12:12 ` Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-01 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-01 14:40 ` how to configure Meta key with wayland (was: vterm and Meta?) hw ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-01 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 14:12 +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: > Hi, > > Are you using emacs in a terminal? sometimes > If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the > one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and > that works in vterm. Uhm, I've been using emacs for over 30 years and in all these years, the ESC key was always used for a meta key across all instances by default. It's the same when running emacs in a terminal, as an X11 client or with wayland. The key left of the space bar has always been the Alt key on all PC keyboards I've used so far. Pressing, for example, Alt-x, inserts x into the buffer (like into this buffer I'm writing this reply in, and into the vterm buffer). How is it that it's different for you? > If you don't usually run programs using the Esc key in vterm, you can > unbind it and send it with vterm-send-next-key when necessary. Hm, true, I can try that. It's not like I need the ESC key too often in a terminal. Somehow I didn't think of that, thank you :) But then, maybe it makes sense to reconfigure things to use the Alt key instead of ESC? Apparently Alt doesn't do anything now and may be less awkward to type. Hmm ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* how to configure Meta key with wayland (was: vterm and Meta?) 2023-08-01 14:21 ` hw @ 2023-08-01 14:40 ` hw 2023-08-01 15:05 ` vterm and Meta? Spencer Baugh 2023-08-01 15:09 ` Thibaut Verron 2 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-01 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 16:21 +0200, hw wrote: > > But then, maybe it makes sense to reconfigure things to use the Alt > key instead of ESC? Apparently Alt doesn't do anything now and may be > less awkward to type. Hmm ... Ok, how would I configure this? I couldn't find anything useful when searching for like 'emacs change meta key wayland'. When I look at the keyboard display in gnome, it shows Meta L and Meta R on the left and right Alt keys, respectively. Why is emacs not using the apparently available Meta key(s) and uses ESC instead? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-01 14:40 ` how to configure Meta key with wayland (was: vterm and Meta?) hw @ 2023-08-01 15:05 ` Spencer Baugh 2023-08-01 16:36 ` hw 2023-08-01 15:09 ` Thibaut Verron 2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Spencer Baugh @ 2023-08-01 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 14:12 +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Are you using emacs in a terminal? > > sometimes > >> If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the >> one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and >> that works in vterm. > > Uhm, I've been using emacs for over 30 years and in all these years, > the ESC key was always used for a meta key across all instances by > default. It's the same when running emacs in a terminal, as an X11 > client or with wayland. > > The key left of the space bar has always been the Alt key on all PC > keyboards I've used so far. Pressing, for example, Alt-x, inserts x > into the buffer (like into this buffer I'm writing this reply in, and > into the vterm buffer). > > How is it that it's different for you? > >> If you don't usually run programs using the Esc key in vterm, you can >> unbind it and send it with vterm-send-next-key when necessary. > > Hm, true, I can try that. It's not like I need the ESC key too often > in a terminal. Somehow I didn't think of that, thank you :) > > But then, maybe it makes sense to reconfigure things to use the Alt > key instead of ESC? Apparently Alt doesn't do anything now and may be > less awkward to type. Hmm ... It's possible to separate these in graphical frames. I think you could (define-key local-function-key-map (kbd "<escape>") nil) to make <escape> no longer map to ESC. Then you can remove the ESC binding in vterm and add an <escape> binding. Then Meta bindings and <escape> will be separate. (I know this because I figured it out for some evil-mode users and wrote it up here: https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil/issues/1780 ) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 15:05 ` vterm and Meta? Spencer Baugh @ 2023-08-01 16:36 ` hw 2023-08-03 19:56 ` Spencer Baugh 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-01 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 11:05 -0400, Spencer Baugh wrote: > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > > On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 14:12 +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Are you using emacs in a terminal? > > > > sometimes > > > > > If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the > > > one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and > > > that works in vterm. > > > > Uhm, I've been using emacs for over 30 years and in all these years, > > the ESC key was always used for a meta key across all instances by > > default. It's the same when running emacs in a terminal, as an X11 > > client or with wayland. > > > > The key left of the space bar has always been the Alt key on all PC > > keyboards I've used so far. Pressing, for example, Alt-x, inserts x > > into the buffer (like into this buffer I'm writing this reply in, and > > into the vterm buffer). > > > > How is it that it's different for you? > > > > > If you don't usually run programs using the Esc key in vterm, you can > > > unbind it and send it with vterm-send-next-key when necessary. > > > > Hm, true, I can try that. It's not like I need the ESC key too often > > in a terminal. Somehow I didn't think of that, thank you :) > > > > But then, maybe it makes sense to reconfigure things to use the Alt > > key instead of ESC? Apparently Alt doesn't do anything now and may be > > less awkward to type. Hmm ... > > It's possible to separate these in graphical frames. I think you could > > (define-key local-function-key-map (kbd "<escape>") nil) > > to make <escape> no longer map to ESC. Then you can remove the ESC > binding in vterm and add an <escape> binding. Then Meta bindings and > <escape> will be separate. > > (I know this because I figured it out for some evil-mode users and wrote > it up here: https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil/issues/1780 ) Cool, only when I disable the only Meta key I have, I won't have a Meta key at all, would I? I'd have to somehow configure some of the Alt keys as Meta first. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 16:36 ` hw @ 2023-08-03 19:56 ` Spencer Baugh 0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: Spencer Baugh @ 2023-08-03 19:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 11:05 -0400, Spencer Baugh wrote: >> hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: >> > On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 14:12 +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > Are you using emacs in a terminal? >> > >> > sometimes >> > >> > > If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the >> > > one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and >> > > that works in vterm. >> > >> > Uhm, I've been using emacs for over 30 years and in all these years, >> > the ESC key was always used for a meta key across all instances by >> > default. It's the same when running emacs in a terminal, as an X11 >> > client or with wayland. >> > >> > The key left of the space bar has always been the Alt key on all PC >> > keyboards I've used so far. Pressing, for example, Alt-x, inserts x >> > into the buffer (like into this buffer I'm writing this reply in, and >> > into the vterm buffer). >> > >> > How is it that it's different for you? >> > >> > > If you don't usually run programs using the Esc key in vterm, you can >> > > unbind it and send it with vterm-send-next-key when necessary. >> > >> > Hm, true, I can try that. It's not like I need the ESC key too often >> > in a terminal. Somehow I didn't think of that, thank you :) >> > >> > But then, maybe it makes sense to reconfigure things to use the Alt >> > key instead of ESC? Apparently Alt doesn't do anything now and may be >> > less awkward to type. Hmm ... >> >> It's possible to separate these in graphical frames. I think you could >> >> (define-key local-function-key-map (kbd "<escape>") nil) >> >> to make <escape> no longer map to ESC. Then you can remove the ESC >> binding in vterm and add an <escape> binding. Then Meta bindings and >> <escape> will be separate. >> >> (I know this because I figured it out for some evil-mode users and wrote >> it up here: https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil/issues/1780 ) > > Cool, only when I disable the only Meta key I have, I won't have a > Meta key at all, would I? I'd have to somehow configure some of the > Alt keys as Meta first. No. Alt will still be translated to send ESC, so it will still work as Meta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-01 14:40 ` how to configure Meta key with wayland (was: vterm and Meta?) hw 2023-08-01 15:05 ` vterm and Meta? Spencer Baugh @ 2023-08-01 15:09 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-01 16:25 ` hw 2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-01 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw, help-gnu-emacs On 01/08/2023 16:21, hw wrote: > >> If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the >> one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and >> that works in vterm. > Uhm, I've been using emacs for over 30 years and in all these years, > the ESC key was always used for a meta key across all instances by > default. It's the same when running emacs in a terminal, as an X11 > client or with wayland. Yes, that is still the case. Alt is bound to Meta (as a modifier) on GUI clients, and so is Esc (as a prefix). > The key left of the space bar has always been the Alt key on all PC > keyboards I've used so far. Pressing, for example, Alt-x, inserts x > into the buffer (like into this buffer I'm writing this reply in, and > into the vterm buffer). > > How is it that it's different for you? I have no idea! It should be the default behavior, at least for GUI Emacs: Meta (the emacs modifier) is bound to Alt (the modifier key), and Alt is free to bind to another modifier. I would guess that either your keyboard has an unconventional mapping, or your Emacs has an unconventional setting. How is it with emacs -q? What key does C-h k Alt-x look up for you? M-x, A-x, or x? Best wishes, Thibaut PS. I just tried it in a terminal and it also works there, I was not expecting it. But it might depend on the capabilities of your terminal emulator. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 15:09 ` Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-01 16:25 ` hw 2023-08-01 19:54 ` Thibaut Verron 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-01 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 17:09 +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: > On 01/08/2023 16:21, hw wrote: > > > > > If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the > > > one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and > > > that works in vterm. > > Uhm, I've been using emacs for over 30 years and in all these years, > > the ESC key was always used for a meta key across all instances by > > default. It's the same when running emacs in a terminal, as an X11 > > client or with wayland. > > Yes, that is still the case. Alt is bound to Meta (as a modifier) on GUI > clients, and so is Esc (as a prefix). Alt doesn't really do much. > > The key left of the space bar has always been the Alt key on all PC > > keyboards I've used so far. Pressing, for example, Alt-x, inserts x > > into the buffer (like into this buffer I'm writing this reply in, and > > into the vterm buffer). > > > > How is it that it's different for you? > > I have no idea! It should be the default behavior, at least for GUI > Emacs: Meta (the emacs modifier) is bound to Alt (the modifier key), and > Alt is free to bind to another modifier. I would guess that either your > keyboard has an unconventional mapping, or your Emacs has an > unconventional setting. I have used quite a few different keyboards over the decades, so that's probably not it. > How is it with emacs -q? > > What key does C-h k Alt-x look up for you? M-x, A-x, or x? It looks up x: "runs the command self-insert-command (found in global-map), which is an interactive built-in function in ‘C source code’ ..." It used to be possible to do stuff with key bindings through xmodmap. I haven't been able to do anything like that with wayland. > > Best wishes, > > Thibaut > > PS. I just tried it in a terminal and it also works there, I was not > expecting it. But it might depend on the capabilities of your terminal > emulator. Alt or ESC, or both? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 16:25 ` hw @ 2023-08-01 19:54 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-02 0:39 ` hw 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-01 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs, hw > It looks up x: "runs the command self-insert-command (found in > global-map), which is an interactive built-in function in ‘C source > code’ ..." Even with emacs -q? Are you perhaps trying to use Meta like you use Esc, releasing Alt before you press x ? > Alt or ESC, or both? Both, but I'm only surprised about Alt, Esc should always work. On Tue Aug 1, 2023, 04:25 PM GMT, hw <mailto:hw@adminart.net> wrote: > On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 17:09 +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: >> On 01/08/2023 16:21, hw wrote: >> > >> > > If not, Meta is usually bound to a modifier key (afaik by default the >> > > one immediately left of the space bar, e.g. alt on PC keyboards), and >> > > that works in vterm. >> > Uhm, I've been using emacs for over 30 years and in all these years, >> > the ESC key was always used for a meta key across all instances by >> > default. It's the same when running emacs in a terminal, as an X11 >> > client or with wayland. >> >> Yes, that is still the case. Alt is bound to Meta (as a modifier) on GUI >> clients, and so is Esc (as a prefix). > > Alt doesn't really do much. >> > The key left of the space bar has always been the Alt key on all PC >> > keyboards I've used so far. Pressing, for example, Alt-x, inserts x >> > into the buffer (like into this buffer I'm writing this reply in, and >> > into the vterm buffer). >> > >> > How is it that it's different for you? >> >> I have no idea! It should be the default behavior, at least for GUI >> Emacs: Meta (the emacs modifier) is bound to Alt (the modifier key), and >> Alt is free to bind to another modifier. I would guess that either your >> keyboard has an unconventional mapping, or your Emacs has an >> unconventional setting. > > I have used quite a few different keyboards over the decades, so > that's probably not it. >> How is it with emacs -q? >> >> What key does C-h k Alt-x look up for you? M-x, A-x, or x? > > It looks up x: "runs the command self-insert-command (found in > global-map), which is an interactive built-in function in ‘C source > code’ ..." > > It used to be possible to do stuff with key bindings through xmodmap. > I haven't been able to do anything like that with wayland. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Thibaut >> >> PS. I just tried it in a terminal and it also works there, I was not >> expecting it. But it might depend on the capabilities of your terminal >> emulator. > > Alt or ESC, or both? > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 19:54 ` Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-02 0:39 ` hw 2023-08-02 7:54 ` Thibaut Verron 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-02 0:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 19:54 +0000, Thibaut Verron wrote: > > It looks up x: "runs the command self-insert-command (found in > > global-map), which is an interactive built-in function in ‘C source > > code’ ..." > > Even with emacs -q? With -Q ... with -q, it says "x is undefined" in the message buffer. > Are you perhaps trying to use Meta like you use Esc, releasing Alt before you press x ? No, I'm pressing Alt-x without letting off of Alt. Not having to let off like with ESC makes it seem so interesting to be able to use Alt instead of ESC for Meta. > > Alt or ESC, or both? > > Both, but I'm only surprised about Alt, Esc should always work. emacs -q -nw in gnome terminal also says "x is undefined". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 0:39 ` hw @ 2023-08-02 7:54 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-02 14:21 ` hw 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-02 7:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs, hw > With -Q ... with -q, it says "x is undefined" in the message buffer. That is... extremely strange. What about C-h k x ? What is your operating system, emacs version, etc? Does the alt key on your keyboard work in other programs? If you are on X, can you use xev to confirm that it sends the correct keycode? On Wed Aug 2, 2023, 12:39 AM GMT, hw <mailto:hw@adminart.net> wrote: > On Tue, 2023-08-01 at 19:54 +0000, Thibaut Verron wrote: >> > It looks up x: "runs the command self-insert-command (found in >> > global-map), which is an interactive built-in function in ‘C source >> > code’ ..." >> >> Even with emacs -q? > > With -Q ... with -q, it says "x is undefined" in the message buffer. >> Are you perhaps trying to use Meta like you use Esc, releasing Alt before you press x ? > > No, I'm pressing Alt-x without letting off of Alt. Not having to let > off like with ESC makes it seem so interesting to be able to use Alt > instead of ESC for Meta. >> > Alt or ESC, or both? >> >> Both, but I'm only surprised about Alt, Esc should always work. > > emacs -q -nw in gnome terminal also says "x is undefined". > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 7:54 ` Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-02 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-02 14:29 ` hw 2023-08-02 15:05 ` Thibaut Verron 0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-02 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 07:54 +0000, Thibaut Verron wrote: > > With -Q ... with -q, it says "x is undefined" in the message buffer. > That is... extremely strange. What do you expect to happen? > What about C-h k x ? emacs -Q: x runs the command self-insert-command emacs -q: x is undefined > What is your operating system, emacs version, etc? Fedora Workstation 38 # emacs --version GNU Emacs 30.0.50 Development version 19777b7c864f on master branch; build date 2023-07-30. I compiled it the other day following [1] because I wanted a version that works with wayland. So far, it works fine :) [1]: https://github.com/NapoleonWils0n/cerberus/blob/master/fedora/emacs-build-fedora.org > Does the alt key on your keyboard work in other programs? Yes, when I look at the display of the keyobard layout in gnome that you can display through Settings, it shows the Alt key pressed. Now I tried Libreoffice calc and it doesn't seem to work as expected. When I press Ctrl+Alt+C, using the *left* Alt key, it looks as if the cell was copied. Using the *right* Alt key for Ctrl+Alt+C brings up a yellowish window which is probably what should happen because Ctrl+Alt+C is supposed to insert a comment. Oh, interestingly, pressing Alt-x in Emacs does work when I use the *right* Alt key! That's something new! > If you are on X, can you use xev to confirm that it sends the correct keycode? I could switch back to see what it sends, but since I want to use wayland, there isn't much point ... When I start xev in vterm in emacs in wayland, it says KeyPress event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44020369, (3073,685), root:(3123,812), state 0x10, keycode 64 (keysym 0xfe03, ISO_Level3_Shift), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 bytes: XmbLookupString gives 0 bytes: XFilterEvent returns: False KeyRelease event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44020562, (3073,685), root:(3123,812), state 0x90, keycode 64 (keysym 0xfe03, ISO_Level3_Shift), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 bytes: XFilterEvent returns: False for *left* Alt and KeyPress event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44174354, (159,-25), root:(209,102), state 0x10, keycode 108 (keysym 0xffea, Alt_R), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 bytes: XmbLookupString gives 0 bytes: XFilterEvent returns: False KeyRelease event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44174482, (159,-25), root:(209,102), state 0x18, keycode 108 (keysym 0xffea, Alt_R), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 bytes: XFilterEvent returns: False for *right* Alt. I guess it should say Alt_L for *left* Alt. So at least that's interesting --- but how do I get the left Alt key to work right? I haven't been able to find out how to change keyboard layouts with wayland. There must be some place where they are defined because there is many premade keyboard layouts I can pick from for all kinds of different languages. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 14:21 ` hw @ 2023-08-02 14:29 ` hw 2023-08-02 15:10 ` Yuri Khan 2023-08-02 15:05 ` Thibaut Verron 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-02 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 16:21 +0200, hw wrote: > > So at least that's interesting --- but how do I get the left Alt key > to work right? This seems to be one of these stupid gnome issues. In gnome, there is Settings-->Keyboard-->Alternate Characters Key, and the key you pick there gets disabled :( How do I turn this off? I don't need this and it gets in the way. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 14:29 ` hw @ 2023-08-02 15:10 ` Yuri Khan 2023-08-03 14:02 ` hw 2023-08-03 19:46 ` tpeplt 0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2023-08-02 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 at 21:30, hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote: > This seems to be one of these stupid gnome issues. In gnome, there is > Settings-->Keyboard-->Alternate Characters Key, and the key you pick > there gets disabled :( Indeed. See merge request <https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/merge_requests/910> and several bug reports linked from there. > How do I turn this off? I don't need this and it gets in the way. (a) sacrifice a less important key (maybe right Alt or right Super) (b) wait for a future release of GNOME in which that MR will be merged (c) migrate to Ubuntu which applies that MR as a distro patch (d) migrate off GNOME to a compositor that gives you direct control over xkb options (e) use Gnome Tweaks to disable that option and avoid the Settings → Keyboard panel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 15:10 ` Yuri Khan @ 2023-08-03 14:02 ` hw 2023-08-03 19:46 ` tpeplt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-03 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 22:10 +0700, Yuri Khan wrote: > On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 at 21:30, hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote: > > > This seems to be one of these stupid gnome issues. In gnome, there is > > Settings-->Keyboard-->Alternate Characters Key, and the key you pick > > there gets disabled :( > > Indeed. See merge request > <https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/merge_requests/910> > and several bug reports linked from there. Yeah there's bug reports going back 2 years or longer. > > How do I turn this off? I don't need this and it gets in the way. > > (a) sacrifice a less important key (maybe right Alt or right Super) Right Alt is very important; I don't seem to have right Super, so I set that. > (b) wait for a future release of GNOME in which that MR will be merged Haha, when will that be? > (c) migrate to Ubuntu which applies that MR as a distro patch Uh no, I'm not touching Ubuntu. > (d) migrate off GNOME to a compositor that gives you direct control > over xkb options Are there any? > (e) use Gnome Tweaks to disable that option and avoid the Settings → > Keyboard panel Fedora gives us only a dumbed-down version of tweaks. Hmm ... "Key to choose the 3rd level"? It has more options than in settings, but still no option to disable it. Ah, hm, I can pick none of these options, maybe that disables it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 15:10 ` Yuri Khan 2023-08-03 14:02 ` hw @ 2023-08-03 19:46 ` tpeplt 2023-08-03 21:32 ` hw 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: tpeplt @ 2023-08-03 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: hw, help-gnu-emacs Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes: > >> How do I turn this off? I don't need this and it gets in the way. > > (a) sacrifice a less important key (maybe right Alt or right Super) > (b) wait for a future release of GNOME in which that MR will be merged > (c) migrate to Ubuntu which applies that MR as a distro patch > (d) migrate off GNOME to a compositor that gives you direct control > over xkb options > (e) use Gnome Tweaks to disable that option and avoid the Settings → > Keyboard panel Having read this thread so far, there has been no mention of the following. As the ASCII table points out, ‘[’ is the control character for ESC (escape). Helpfully, Emacs recognizes this so it can be used as an alternative to reaching for the <Esc> key or a poorly-located <Alt> or <Meta> key. It can work on both terminal and graphical Emacs. If your hands allow this combination (the <Ctrl> key must be held down while reaching for and pressing the ‘[’ key), then this can be a good combination for Emacs that reduces or eliminates repetitive-stress injuries (RSI). Here is a keyboard remapping suggestion (bottom row of keyboard): [alt/meta] [ctrl] [ space ] [ctrl] [alt/meta] With this arrangement, the Ctrl-[ combination for the Meta key is pressed with your left thumb (short reach) and right pinkie (short reach). A key combination such as C-M-v (the ‘scroll-other-window’ command) is performed by pressing and holding the <Ctrl> key while pressing the ‘[’ key. Then those keys are released just as would be done when pressing the <Esc> key and the <Ctrl>-v key will complete the key combination. The <Alt> key can then be left to use (only) for those key combinations where you need to repeat some key combination, such as <M-v> (the ‘scroll-down-command’). Simply press and hold the <Alt> key while repeatedly pressing the ‘v’ as needed. If you don’t need to repeat a Meta key combination, use <Ctrl>-[ instead. The advantage of this approach is that the long thumb reach for either <Alt> key is avoided except for rare instances, while the short thumb reach is used for frequent instances of <Ctrl> or <Ctrl>-[. There is also an extra benefit for touch typists -- it is much more rare that unused fingers need to be lifted from the home keys. If it is available to you, the ‘gnome-tweaks’ package can be used to remap the Alt and Ctrl keys. Within the gnome-tweaks application, see the "Keyboard & Mouse" settings and then select the "Additional Layout Options". -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-03 19:46 ` tpeplt @ 2023-08-03 21:32 ` hw 2023-08-03 22:29 ` tpeplt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-03 21:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Thu, 2023-08-03 at 15:46 -0400, tpeplt wrote: > Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes: > > > > > How do I turn this off? I don't need this and it gets in the way. > > > > (a) sacrifice a less important key (maybe right Alt or right Super) > > (b) wait for a future release of GNOME in which that MR will be merged > > (c) migrate to Ubuntu which applies that MR as a distro patch > > (d) migrate off GNOME to a compositor that gives you direct control > > over xkb options > > (e) use Gnome Tweaks to disable that option and avoid the Settings → > > Keyboard panel > > Having read this thread so far, there has been no mention of the > following. > > As the ASCII table points out, ‘[’ is the control character for ESC > (escape). Helpfully, Emacs recognizes this so it can be used as an > alternative to reaching for the <Esc> key or a poorly-located <Alt> or > <Meta> key. It can work on both terminal and graphical Emacs. That actually works without any ado, at least under wayland. > If your hands allow this combination (the <Ctrl> key must be held down > while reaching for and pressing the ‘[’ key), then this can be a good > combination for Emacs that reduces or eliminates repetitive-stress > injuries (RSI). > > Here is a keyboard remapping suggestion (bottom row of keyboard): > > [alt/meta] [ctrl] [ space ] [ctrl] [alt/meta] > > With this arrangement, the Ctrl-[ combination for the Meta key is > pressed with your left thumb (short reach) and right pinkie (short > reach). A key combination such as C-M-v (the ‘scroll-other-window’ > command) is performed by pressing and holding the <Ctrl> key while > pressing the ‘[’ key. Then those keys are released just as would be > done when pressing the <Esc> key and the <Ctrl>-v key will complete the > key combination. Try it on a keyboard shown in [1] (which is an awesome keyboard indeed), or on a German keyboard :) It's awkward to press. Swapping Ctrl with Alt on the right would make it easier, but that would take some getting used to. On a German keyboard, Ctrl-[ is virtually inaccessible because you would have to press AltGr+Shift+8, and the only AltGr key you get is on the right. [1]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UB40B5A > The <Alt> key can then be left to use (only) for those key combinations > where you need to repeat some key combination, such as <M-v> (the > ‘scroll-down-command’). Simply press and hold the <Alt> key while > repeatedly pressing the ‘v’ as needed. If you don’t need to repeat a > Meta key combination, use <Ctrl>-[ instead. Well, I don't use M-v. Like I said, Alt for Meta hasn't been working ever since I came across emacs about 30 years ago. That was on an Atari ST. Meta has always been ESC, and using that for movement is no fun. > The advantage of this approach is that the long thumb reach for either > <Alt> key is avoided except for rare instances, while the short thumb > reach is used for frequent instances of <Ctrl> or <Ctrl>-[. There is > also an extra benefit for touch typists -- it is much more rare that > unused fingers need to be lifted from the home keys. I always take my fingers off the home row for moving around, except for Ctrl-a and Ctrl-e. That way I can use the cursor keys and PgDown/PgUp keys --- it's what makes sense to me. Ctrl and Alt are special keys for me which aren't included in 10-finger typing. Typewriters don't have these keys, and they are very awkwardly positioned ... I'd be impressed if you can use these keys just like all the others. > If it is available to you, the ‘gnome-tweaks’ package can be used to > remap the Alt and Ctrl keys. Within the gnome-tweaks application, see > the "Keyboard & Mouse" settings and then select the "Additional Layout > Options". Right --- yet what makes Alt for Meta so great is that you can do stuff directly, like M-x right away puts you into the minibuffer where you can enter the name of the function you want to call. Having to use ESC or Ctrl-[ makes this awkward because you have to press ESC first and then x. That has always been weird. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-03 21:32 ` hw @ 2023-08-03 22:29 ` tpeplt 2023-08-04 20:08 ` hw 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: tpeplt @ 2023-08-03 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: >> >> Here is a keyboard remapping suggestion (bottom row of keyboard): >> >> [alt/meta] [ctrl] [ space ] [ctrl] [alt/meta] >> >> With this arrangement, the Ctrl-[ combination for the Meta key is >> pressed with your left thumb (short reach) and right pinkie (short >> reach). A key combination such as C-M-v (the ‘scroll-other-window’ >> command) is performed by pressing and holding the <Ctrl> key while >> pressing the ‘[’ key. Then those keys are released just as would be >> done when pressing the <Esc> key and the <Ctrl>-v key will complete the >> key combination. > > Try it on a keyboard shown in [1] (which is an awesome keyboard > indeed), or on a German keyboard :) It's awkward to press. Swapping > Ctrl with Alt on the right would make it easier, but that would take > some getting used to. > > On a German keyboard, Ctrl-[ is virtually inaccessible because you > would have to press AltGr+Shift+8, and the only AltGr key you get is > on the right. > > > [1]: > https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UB40B5A > If I am seeing this photo correctly, there are <Alt> keys immediately to the left and right of the space bar. These are the ones to swap with the <Ctrl> keys (which I cannot locate in the picture). The ‘[’ key is immediately to the right of the ‘P’ key. Those are the same locations as I am referring to. Use the left thumb to press and hold the <Alt> key while the right pinkie presses the ‘[’ key. This is a minimal amount of reach and does not contort either the left or right hand. The combination is used the same way that the <Esc> key is used: Press and release the two keys (think <Meta>) and then press the next key in the combination. This avoids having to press and hold the <Alt> key in combination with the <Ctrl> key. This might not be to your taste (just as Emacs’s key combinations drive some people to use vi). It can work very well and until I had moved to this arrangement years ago, I routinely had RSI problems. > >> The advantage of this approach is that the long thumb reach for either >> <Alt> key is avoided except for rare instances, while the short thumb >> reach is used for frequent instances of <Ctrl> or <Ctrl>-[. There is >> also an extra benefit for touch typists -- it is much more rare that >> unused fingers need to be lifted from the home keys. > > I always take my fingers off the home row for moving around, except > for Ctrl-a and Ctrl-e. That way I can use the cursor keys and > PgDown/PgUp keys --- it's what makes sense to me. > If you move the <Ctrl> keys to the sides of the <Space> bar, then many Ctrl sequences become available. <Ctrl>-n/<Ctrl>-p can quickly replace the Up/Down arrow keys. <Ctrl> becomes a second <Shift> key, but more easily reached than <Shift>. > Ctrl and Alt are special keys for me which aren't included in > 10-finger typing. Typewriters don't have these keys, and they are > very awkwardly positioned ... I'd be impressed if you can use these > keys just like all the others. > Once re-positioned, the <Ctrl> keys are not much more difficult to reach for your thumbs than the <Space> bar and easier to reach than the <Shift> keys (using your stronger thumbs rather than your weaker pinkies). >> If it is available to you, the ‘gnome-tweaks’ package can be used to >> remap the Alt and Ctrl keys. Within the gnome-tweaks application, see >> the "Keyboard & Mouse" settings and then select the "Additional Layout >> Options". > > Right --- yet what makes Alt for Meta so great is that you can do > stuff directly, like M-x right away puts you into the minibuffer where > you can enter the name of the function you want to call. Having to > use ESC or Ctrl-[ makes this awkward because you have to press ESC > first and then x. That has always been weird. It should be less weird if you reposition the <Ctrl> keys next to the <Space> bar. It puts them within reach of some of your strongest fingers -- your thumbs. Once done, it becomes a touch-typing exercise where you learn to think <Meta> when reaching for <Ctrl> with your left thumb and [ with your right pinkie. Touch typing requires repetitious practicing, as you likely know well. A suggestion to try is to reposition the keys and go through the Emacs Tutorial (C-h t). That would provide practice using many Ctrl key combinations and could help you decide whether this new approach is to your liking. -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-03 22:29 ` tpeplt @ 2023-08-04 20:08 ` hw 2023-08-04 21:20 ` PierGianLuca 2023-08-04 21:42 ` tpeplt 0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-04 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Thu, 2023-08-03 at 18:29 -0400, tpeplt wrote: > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > > > > > > > Here is a keyboard remapping suggestion (bottom row of keyboard): > > > > > > [alt/meta] [ctrl] [ space ] [ctrl] [alt/meta] > > > > > [...] > > > > [1]: > > https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UB40B5A > > > > If I am seeing this photo correctly, there are <Alt> keys immediately to > the left and right of the space bar. These are the ones to swap with > the <Ctrl> keys (which I cannot locate in the picture). The Ctrl keys are left and right to the Alt keys. > The ‘[’ key is immediately to the right of the ‘P’ key. Those are > the same locations as I am referring to. Use the left thumb to > press and hold the <Alt> key while the right pinkie presses the ‘[’ > key. This is a minimal amount of reach and does not contort either > the left or right hand. The combination is used the same way that > the <Esc> key is used: Press and release the two keys (think <Meta>) > and then press the next key in the combination. This avoids having > to press and hold the <Alt> key in combination with the <Ctrl> key. > > This might not be to your taste (just as Emacs’s key combinations drive > some people to use vi). It can work very well and until I had moved to > this arrangement years ago, I routinely had RSI problems. Well, it surely is a possibility. For me, it would be much easier to just press ESC like I have done for about 30 years. ESC always worked while Alt never did, and it has the big advantage that it doesn't require configuration. When you use emacs on different computers only one of which has an US keyboard while the others have German keyboards, one of them being a laptop (and laptop keyboards suck in multiple ways), you'd have to do too much configuration. Add to that a bunch of remote machines on which you also have to configure things and it becomes too tedious. It's not only the keyboard that needs work. It would be great progress if I can get the Alt key to work as Meta everywhere. When you unexcpetedly find yourself thrown into vi, its key bindings have the killer problem that you have to press ESC to get out of editing mode, and that doesn't always work, mostly with no indication weather it did work or not. And since I'm not used to the key bindings in vi, chances are that I accidentially edit something and mess things up. So I quit vi and use emacs instead in case I suddenly end up in vi. I tried to learn vi a while ago but it's lacking basic things like indent-region and about everything else I have in emacs out of the box. After that, I can't even say anymore that there are only two good editors and that everyone should pick whatever they get along with better. Vi is a raw and rudimentary implementation of an editor like so many others while emacs is the tool you ultimately want. If you want raw and rudimentary, why would you use vi? Geany is nice, too, like many others. > > > The advantage of this approach is that the long thumb reach for either > > > <Alt> key is avoided except for rare instances, while the short thumb > > > reach is used for frequent instances of <Ctrl> or <Ctrl>-[. There is > > > also an extra benefit for touch typists -- it is much more rare that > > > unused fingers need to be lifted from the home keys. > > > > I always take my fingers off the home row for moving around, except > > for Ctrl-a and Ctrl-e. That way I can use the cursor keys and > > PgDown/PgUp keys --- it's what makes sense to me. > > > > If you move the <Ctrl> keys to the sides of the <Space> bar, then many > Ctrl sequences become available. I'm finding it much easier to slightly move my left hand to press left Ctrl where it is with my little finger. With Ctrl and Alt swapped, I can't really bend my right thumb to reach right Ctrl whereas I can press it with my little finger when the keys aren't swapped. > <Ctrl>-n/<Ctrl>-p can quickly replace the Up/Down arrow keys. The dedicated movement keys replaced the ideosyncratic movement keys the emacs tutorial suggested not only quickly but right away (see below) :) > <Ctrl> becomes a second <Shift> key, but more easily reached than > <Shift>. Shift is easier to reach than Ctrl, especially when you swap Alt and Ctrl, unless you configure CapsLock as Ctrl, which I have. You could also configure CapsLock as Alt so it becomes Meta and use CapsLock-a instead of M-x, and so on. Hm, thinking of it, CapsLock as Alt seems to make way more sense since I almost never use that anyway ... But how do I configure CapsLock as Alt in wayland? Shift needs to be easy to reach, you'll notice when you write German. > > Ctrl and Alt are special keys for me which aren't included in > > 10-finger typing. Typewriters don't have these keys, and they are > > very awkwardly positioned ... I'd be impressed if you can use these > > keys just like all the others. > > > > Once re-positioned, the <Ctrl> keys are not much more difficult to reach > for your thumbs than the <Space> bar That's not true, I have to bend my left thumb, and on the right I have to raise my whole arm to bend my thumb that far. Pressing the space bar doesn't require bending. > and easier to reach than the <Shift> keys (using your stronger > thumbs rather than your weaker pinkies). Shift is easier to reach, even if only because I'm more used to that. The springs buckle easily enough to press keys with my little fingers. Even when the keyboard is worn out, it's not the springs that hinder the movement of the keys but the debris that got into them (you can't really get that out anymore at that point, so you never turn a keyboard upside down) and the wobblyness of the key stems which makes them rub inside their holders once they're angled too much. That gets only worse over time but the springs remain fine :) That is how even a Model M wears out eventually. > > > If it is available to you, the ‘gnome-tweaks’ package can be used to > > > remap the Alt and Ctrl keys. Within the gnome-tweaks application, see > > > the "Keyboard & Mouse" settings and then select the "Additional Layout > > > Options". > > > > Right --- yet what makes Alt for Meta so great is that you can do > > stuff directly, like M-x right away puts you into the minibuffer where > > you can enter the name of the function you want to call. Having to > > use ESC or Ctrl-[ makes this awkward because you have to press ESC > > first and then x. That has always been weird. > > It should be less weird if you reposition the <Ctrl> keys next to the > <Space> bar. That would be totally weird. And it would create issues, like how am I supposed to press Cltr-l without bending my hand when the Ctrl key is misplaced? > It puts them within reach of some of your strongest fingers -- your > thumbs. Not eactly, and only on the left. Right Ctrl would be become inaccessible. Have you ever used a Model M keyboard (or the 122 key variant)? They are reasonably --- i. e. like perfectly --- sized and the key spacing is perfect. On all other keyboards I've tried, the spacing is too small and they give me a cramped feeling. But when your hands are larger or smaller than mine, you may see that totally different. If you want to get a Model M, go for it. It's still overall the best keyboard you can get. The original ones have become expensive and hard to find and may be worn out after 30 years. Fortunately, you can get a new one from Unicomp, and that's very likely the better deal. > Once done, it becomes a touch-typing exercise where you learn to > think <Meta> when reaching for <Ctrl> with your left thumb and [ > with your right pinkie. Touch typing requires repetitious > practicing, as you likely know well. Yes, and it also requires that you find the keyboard that is best for you and is configured for your needs and that you use nothing else. When you come across different keyboards made for different languages and not configured for your needs, this approach doesn't work so well. And my thumbs are pretty much the last fingers I'd use to press Ctrl when the rest of my fingers are at the home row. The home row is great for typing, not for moving around. I either type or move around, and for moving around, the dedicated movement keys are very convenient. How much do you move around on a typewriter? > A suggestion to try is to reposition the keys and go through the Emacs > Tutorial (C-h t). That would provide practice using many Ctrl key > combinations and could help you decide whether this new approach is to > your liking. I did that in the 90ies on my Atari ST. You can still find pictures of the keyboards they used. How much sense do you think that tutorial made with these keyboards (their German version) --- and no, Alt didn't work for Meta but ESC did. It has been like that since then, the only Meta key was ESC. Using the dedicated movement keys made total sense and all the key bindings for movement in the tutorial have never made sense, and they still don't make sense today. The only exception is Ctrl-a and Ctrl-e which I must have learned back then, from that very tutorial, and it always annoys me when that doesn't work somewhere. Hm, ok, Ctrl-l is another one, if you want to call that movement. But that's all. Key bindings like C-b, C-f and a lot of others are still useless today because pressing the Ctrl key --- doing it the easiest way --- requires me to move my right hand over to the right to press Ctrl with my little finger. And when I do that, it's much easier to use dedicated movement keys instead, and it doesn't require thinking. (CapsLock for Ctrl is easier to reach but requires configuration and big relearning.) However, it seems I'm accidentially learning M-a and M-e --- acciditentially because I pressed M-a when I wanted to press M-q a few times and figured out what that does. You never do that when you only have ESC for Meta. Your suggestions are good, only they don't work for me. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-04 20:08 ` hw @ 2023-08-04 21:20 ` PierGianLuca 2023-08-06 16:32 ` hw 2023-08-04 21:42 ` tpeplt 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: PierGianLuca @ 2023-08-04 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs, hw > Hm, thinking of it, CapsLock as Alt seems to make way more sense since > I almost never use that anyway ... But how do I configure CapsLock as > Alt in wayland? Try out Xremap: https://github.com/k0kubun/xremap It is extremely flexible and even allows per-app configurations. It works at a deeper level than other keymap-like programs (such as AutoKey for instance), so you don't even notice it's there. I use it on X11, but apparently it works with Wayland too. Cheers, Luca ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-04 21:20 ` PierGianLuca @ 2023-08-06 16:32 ` hw 2023-08-06 17:09 ` PierGianLuca 2023-08-06 17:39 ` Yuri Khan 0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-06 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 23:20 +0200, PierGianLuca wrote: > > Hm, thinking of it, CapsLock as Alt seems to make way more sense since > > I almost never use that anyway ... But how do I configure CapsLock as > > Alt in wayland? > > Try out Xremap: > > https://github.com/k0kubun/xremap > > It is extremely flexible and even allows per-app configurations. It works at a deeper level than other keymap-like programs (such as AutoKey for instance), so you don't even notice it's there. I use it on X11, but apparently it works with Wayland too. Thanks! I doubt it works on a "deeper level" with wayland because it requires a gnome shell extension to figure out which program is currently focused. That makes me think it intercepts the keyboard input, does its thing to that and sends the result to whatever program currently has the keyboard focus --- or something along these lines. That seems like a really bad software because it raises all kinds of security issues, because the overhead (not to mention the dependencies) must be tremendous and because it doesn't actually fix the problem by allowing to change the keyboard layout but wedges a bad layer in between. (It's not like gnome shell extensions are easy to set up. I only did it because I wanted gs-connect so I could send SMS, but that worked only for a little while and is broken since. If gnome had a decent window manager, these extensions wouldn't be needed anyway.) And that doesn't even mention that the gnome people still haven't gotten focus-follows-mouse to work right which fvwm does so well since ages. They got it work better than it did, though. Some people must have a really weird understanding of "deeper level". Why can't we just modify the predefined keyboard layouts? Somebody must have made them somehow. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-06 16:32 ` hw @ 2023-08-06 17:09 ` PierGianLuca 2023-08-06 17:39 ` Yuri Khan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: PierGianLuca @ 2023-08-06 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi hw, > Some people must have a really weird understanding of "deeper level". I'm absolutely not knowledgeable about this kind of things, so I've probably chosen inappropriate terms, don't take me too literally. The solution I proposed is just a make-do solution. On Ubuntu+KDE and X11 it doesn't seem to have much of an overhead; at least it's at the bottom of CPU usage in system monitor. "Must be tremendous" doesn't mean "is tremendous". I completely agree that the situation with keyboard customization (and also locale customization) is completely messed up in Ubuntu and Kubuntu (don't know about other distros or desktop environments). This (and locale) was one, maybe the only one, kind of customization that was much easier on Windows than on Ubuntu. I'm used to a key configuration similar to that described by Eli (or maybe I remember incorrectly?), with Ctrl closer to space, then Alt, then the 3rd-level/diacritics key, and CapsLock as "Super". It was a nightmare to set it up on Ubuntu. I tried to modify the xkb configuration files in all kinds of ways, but and after several days of trials and searches it became clear that in fact it couldn't be done at all. The only thing that can be easily changed are ordinary letters (for example making letters with diacritics available under non-standard places, say "å" under the "l" key or similar). If I remember correctly there were several online guides and blogs that made it clear that customizations involving "special" keys are quite complicated. So I turned to make-do solutions: first with AutoKey, but that did have quite an overhead. Then Xremap, which has been great for me. Cheers, Luca ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-06 16:32 ` hw 2023-08-06 17:09 ` PierGianLuca @ 2023-08-06 17:39 ` Yuri Khan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2023-08-06 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 at 23:33, hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote: > > Try out Xremap: > That seems like a really bad software because it raises all kinds of > security issues, because the overhead (not to mention the > dependencies) must be tremendous and because it doesn't actually fix > the problem by allowing to change the keyboard layout but wedges a bad > layer in between. You guys should really look into building custom keyboards rather than trying to beat whatever is offered on the market into shape using software solutions. At least two fully Free keyboard firmwares are available (QMK for wired keyboards, ZMK for Bluetooth) and you will be able to put whichever keys you want, wherever is comfortable for you. For an Emacs user, it really pays off to design a board with many thumb keys and put all the modifiers there. You also have the option to program certain keys with one function when quickly pressed and released, another when held, e.g. combine Space and Super. (Please direct any responses to this subthread to emacs-tangents, I feel it would be off-topic here.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-04 20:08 ` hw 2023-08-04 21:20 ` PierGianLuca @ 2023-08-04 21:42 ` tpeplt 2023-08-06 19:41 ` hw 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: tpeplt @ 2023-08-04 21:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > On Thu, 2023-08-03 at 18:29 -0400, tpeplt wrote: >> hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: >> >> > > >> > > Here is a keyboard remapping suggestion (bottom row of keyboard): >> > > >> > > [alt/meta] [ctrl] [ space ] [ctrl] [alt/meta] >> > > >> > [...] >> > >> > [1]: >> > https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UB40B5A It sounds as though you have made up your mind not to try the suggestion, above, which is understandable because many people have firm, fixed views about the most usable way to configure their keyboard. For anyone reading this who wants to try it using Gnome, especially if you have had pain in your hands/RSI, here are the steps to arrange the bottom row of the keyboard as described above: 1. (Install and) Start the gnome-tweaks application. 2. In the application, click on the "Keyboard&Mouse" entry in the menu on the left-hand side of the application. 3. Click on the "Additional Layout Options" button. 4. In the Additional Layout Options pane, click on the "Alt and Win Behavior" pointer. 5. Select the "Ctrl is mapped to Alt, Alt to Win" radio button. 6. Click on the "Alt and Win Behavior" pointer a second time to close it. 7. Click on the "Ctrl position" pointer. 8. Click on the "Left Alt as Ctrl, Left Ctrl as Win, Left Win as Left Alt" checkbox, if your keyboard has those keys (including the Win/Windows key). 9. Click on the "Right Ctrl as Right Alt". 10. Click on the "Ctrl position" pointer again to close it. Those changes ought to give your keyboard the layout described above. You can then test it to see whether the arrangement is better for you when using Emacs. As a bonus suggestion, move the Backspace key to the CapsLock location. Backspace is used frequently by many people and it should be located close to the home row rather than off in the upper right-hand corner. To move the Backspace key using the gnome-tweaks application, click on the "Caps Lock behavior" after step 10, above. Then click on the radio button labeled "Make Caps Lock an additional Backspace". Unfortunately, gnome-tweaks does not provide a means to *swap* the CapsLock and Backspace keys, so this will configure the keyboard to have *two* Backspace keys. The CapsLock capability is moved to the two Shift keys, which must be pressed *simultaneously* to turn on Caps Lock. To turn off Caps Lock, press either Shift key. > >> > > The advantage of this approach is that the long thumb reach for either >> > > <Alt> key is avoided except for rare instances, while the short thumb >> > > reach is used for frequent instances of <Ctrl> or <Ctrl>-[. There is >> > > also an extra benefit for touch typists -- it is much more rare that >> > > unused fingers need to be lifted from the home keys. >> > >> > I always take my fingers off the home row for moving around, except >> > for Ctrl-a and Ctrl-e. That way I can use the cursor keys and >> > PgDown/PgUp keys --- it's what makes sense to me. >> > >> >> If you move the <Ctrl> keys to the sides of the <Space> bar, then many >> Ctrl sequences become available. > > I'm finding it much easier to slightly move my left hand to press left > Ctrl where it is with my little finger. With Ctrl and Alt swapped, I > can't really bend my right thumb to reach right Ctrl whereas I can > press it with my little finger when the keys aren't swapped. > Yes, unless the <Ctrl> keys are moved to the keys immediately to the left and right of the <SPC> key, the suggestion of using <Ctrl>-[ should not be used. The most typed key on the keyboard or a typewriter is the <SPC> key, so the design should and does place it under the strongest finger (the two thumbs). Reaching slightly to the left and right of the <SPC> key with the thumbs means that 1) a strong finger does the reach and 2) like Shift keys, your hands can be used together. For example, to type <Ctrl>-u, press and hold the left <Ctrl> with your left thumb while typing the "u" with a finger on your right hand. Likewise, to type <Ctrl>-a, press and hold the right <Ctrl> with your right thumb while typing the "a" with your left pinkie. The common practice of putting the <Ctrl> key on the <CapsLock> key means that only one <Ctrl> key is used and so the left hand has to be used to type both the <Ctrl> key and the second key. No one would suggest that the two <Shift> keys be reduced to a single key. > > That would be totally weird. And it would create issues, like how am > I supposed to press Cltr-l without bending my hand when the Ctrl key > is misplaced? > It should be the same, nearly, as pressing the <SPC> bar with your left thumb -- one of the most frequent key presses on the keyboard. > > If you want to get a Model M, go for it. It's still overall the best > keyboard you can get. The original ones have become expensive and > hard to find and may be worn out after 30 years. Fortunately, you can > get a new one from Unicomp, and that's very likely the better deal. > Thank you for the recommendation. It sounds like a nice keyboard and keyboards are worth investing in for typists, including programmers. Although those keyboards are much better than laptop keyboards, my suggestion to move the Ctrl keys is made after using it on laptop keyboards for many years. In fact, a critical consideration when buying a laptop is whether it has the <Ctrl> and <Alt> keys in the locations outlined above (that is, to the left and right of the <SPC> key). I have rejected laptops that do not have that because it would lead to RSI and make typing for programming significantly slower and more difficult. > > And my thumbs are pretty much the last fingers I'd use to press Ctrl > when the rest of my fingers are at the home row. The home row is > great for typing, not for moving around. I either type or move > around, and for moving around, the dedicated movement keys are very > convenient. How much do you move around on a typewriter? > The point of the suggested move is to make typing easier and less prone to RSI. It mostly isn’t even necessary to leave the home row (an occasional <Alt>-<Tab> or <Super> key) and use the very large number of Emacs key combinations. Key combinations become just like another kind of "shift." >> A suggestion to try is to reposition the keys and go through the Emacs >> Tutorial (C-h t). That would provide practice using many Ctrl key >> combinations and could help you decide whether this new approach is to >> your liking. > > I did that in the 90ies on my Atari ST. You can still find pictures > of the keyboards they used. How much sense do you think that tutorial > made with these keyboards (their German version) --- and no, Alt > didn't work for Meta but ESC did. > It didn’t make sense and it lead to RSIs. Fortunately, since then keyboards moved from having a single <Ctrl> key to having two, along with two <Alt> keys. This, plus the ability to reconfigure the keyboard has mostly eliminated RSI and increases typing speed (including Emacs’s commands). > > Key bindings like C-b, C-f and a lot of others are still useless today > because pressing the Ctrl key --- doing it the easiest way --- > requires me to move my right hand over to the right to press Ctrl with > my little finger. And when I do that, it's much easier to use > dedicated movement keys instead, and it doesn't require > thinking. (CapsLock for Ctrl is easier to reach but requires > configuration and big relearning.) > > However, it seems I'm accidentially learning M-a and M-e --- > acciditentially because I pressed M-a when I wanted to press M-q a few > times and figured out what that does. You never do that when you only > have ESC for Meta. > > Your suggestions are good, only they don't work for me. OK. That was always a possibility. It is a suggestion for you to consider and you still could reconsider now that you have seen it as a possibility. (I had RSI for years because I could not see how a simple reconfiguration could fix the problem for me, and I wished I had seen it suggested from the beginning. It is such a significantly better arrangement that I wish it was documented in the Emacs Manual. It could help many people overcome the problem of the complicated key combinations being difficult and driving them not to use Emacs.) Here’s hoping that it might be helpful for some other reader who uses Emacs. -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-04 21:42 ` tpeplt @ 2023-08-06 19:41 ` hw 2023-08-06 19:54 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-06 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 17:42 -0400, tpeplt wrote: > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > > > On Thu, 2023-08-03 at 18:29 -0400, tpeplt wrote: > > > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a keyboard remapping suggestion (bottom row of keyboard): > > > > > > > > > > [alt/meta] [ctrl] [ space ] [ctrl] [alt/meta] > > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > [1]: > > > > https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UB40B5A > > It sounds as though you have made up your mind not to try the > suggestion, above, which is understandable because many people have > firm, fixed views about the most usable way to configure their keyboard. It's a good suggestion and I considered it. I'm not gona follow it because it makes no sense for me, not because I have firm, fixed views. I have a collection of keyboards all of wich are different, all of them except one have a German layout which doesn't have two Alt keys; some of them have these retarded windows keys that always get in the way while others don't, and I'm somtimes using keyboards on other machines. I have found a way to deal with it and part of that way is to go with default configurations as far as possible because it means that I can use emacs and other software with whatever keyboard is connected. Also I don't have the time to configure every machine I run emacs on with the same configuration I have on my workstation at home, and doing that won't make sense because some of these machines don't have keyboards and emacs is accessed through ssh through whatever keyboard the machine has that is used to connect to them. The default of the last 30+ years is that ESC is the only Meta key you get. That my workstation at home is now configured to have Alt as Meta is an exception. I probably can't even be bothered to configure my laptop like that and whenever I can I connect a "real" keyboard to it of whatever layout which happens to be available. Its keyboard is totally different again. If had a firm, fixed view, I wouldn't get anywhere. So please don't assume that would the reason I'm not following your suggestion. Your suggestion does not work with a Germany keyboard, especially when it has windows keys that get in the way. There are probably other keyboards for different languages with which it doesn't work, either. Have you considered that? > [..] > > I'm finding it much easier to slightly move my left hand to press left > > Ctrl where it is with my little finger. With Ctrl and Alt swapped, I > > can't really bend my right thumb to reach right Ctrl whereas I can > > press it with my little finger when the keys aren't swapped. > > > > Yes, unless the <Ctrl> keys are moved to the keys immediately to the > left and right of the <SPC> key, the suggestion of using <Ctrl>-[ should > not be used. Swapping Alt and Ctrl on the right side of _this_ keyboard would make Ctrl virtually inaccessible. Why would I ever press Cltr+[ instead of Alt for Meta? If you remember, pressing that requires you to press AltGr+Shift+Ctrl+8 on a German keyboard. That's bascially an unpressable key combination. The only other program that I know of which uses that is telnet, and it took me years until I finally realised what they meant. Telnet used to say something like "press ^[", and that's one of the most unhelpful hints you can find. IIRC, joe used Ctrl+[ for some things which probably means that wordstar used it, too. Ctrl+[ may make sense on an US keyboard and it doesn't on a German one. I never used that. AltGr+Shift+Ctrl+8 is just too much. > The most typed key on the keyboard or a typewriter is the > <SPC> key, so the design should and does place it under the strongest > finger (the two thumbs). You're totally wrong here: If you have ever used a mechanical typewriter --- and that is where the keyboard layouts we commonly still use today originate from --- you will have noticed that space is the key that requires the least strength to press. The carriage is spring driven and space only releases it to go one letter further, which is easy. With all other keys, you have to hit them hard for the lever to slam down upon the ribbon to get the letter printed on the paper, plus printed on the copies you may also have wound into the machine. That means each finger has to slam so hard as to print the letter through the ribbon onto the paper the ribbon prints on (already hard) and then another two pieces of paper with copy sheets in between of each of them (*really* hard). Two copies is about as much as you can do with a good mechanical typewriter, and it was usually avoided. As a typist, you had to have really strong fingers while your thumbs always had the easiest job, no matter how many copies you had in the machine. When typewriters were invented, manual labour was way different from how it is today and ppl back then probably had incredibly strong fingers. Finger strength was probably not a concern at all when it came to the placement of the keys. They wanted to place them conveniently and at the same time couldn't place them too conveniently because when you type fast on a mechnical typewriter, the levers don't have enough time to get out of the way of the other levers and then the levers get stuck on each other and then the machine is jammed up. That also involved putting levers for frequently used characters apart from other levers for frequently used characters because the further the levers were away from each other, the more room they had not to get into each others way. Since the levers were directly connected to the keys, that meant to have to place the keys away from each other. Nowadays, how much force and thus strength is needed to press a key only depends on the design of the key. That is since electrical typewriters were invented, and that was a long time ago. Only the keyboard layout didn't change much because people are used to it. > Reaching slightly to the left and right of the <SPC> key with the > thumbs On the right side of this keyboard, the key rightmost the space bar is labled Alt, and it is so far to the right that I can't really bend my thumb all that way. There is not slightly here, and every keyboard is different. > means that 1) a strong finger does the reach Wich is irrelevant because the key isn't any harder to press than the others --- depending on the keyboard, of course, since there are keyboards with keys that are harder to press than others. If your fingers are so weak that it does matter, you may need a keyboard with keys that are particularly easy to press. > and 2) like Shift keys, your hands can be used together. I can use my hands together all the time. > For example, to type <Ctrl>-u, press and hold the left <Ctrl> with > your left thumb while typing the "u" with a finger on your right > hand. Ctrl-U is very difficult to press. I never do that unless I really have to, which is almost never. Perhaps my hands aren't as bendy yours. If I were to press it, I would press right Ctrl with my right little finger. It's easier to do that than to try to bend my thumb all the way to reach the Alt key. And it doesn't require special configuration. > Likewise, to type <Ctrl>-a, press and hold the right <Ctrl> > with your right thumb while typing the "a" with your left pinkie. That wouldn't be feasible when Ctrl and Alt were swapped. Pressing Ctrl with mit right little finger works fine. You might suggest a keyboard with three keys in the middle of the space bar, i. e. Space-Ctrl-Alt-Ctrl-Space. That way, the thumbs can either press Ctrl on one side or Alt on any side, or bend a little left or right to press Space. I might like that. (And why are there no keyboards that have different textures for keys to make them more distinguishable by touch?) > The common practice of putting the <Ctrl> key on the <CapsLock> key > means that only one <Ctrl> key is used and so the left hand has to be > used to type both the <Ctrl> key and the second key. No one would > suggest that the two <Shift> keys be reduced to a single key. Having an additional Ctrl on the otherwise annoying key for CapsLock gives you more Ctrl keys and doesn't reduce the number of Ctrl keys to only one. > > That would be totally weird. And it would create issues, like how am > > I supposed to press Cltr-l without bending my hand when the Ctrl key > > is misplaced? > > > > It should be the same, nearly, as pressing the <SPC> bar with your left > thumb -- one of the most frequent key presses on the keyboard. No, I press Ctrl with my little finger on the right side. That key is where it is supposed to be, i. e. where my finger presses. If I were to swap Ctrl and Alt it would suck because I'd have to go out of my way and relearn for an inconvenient keyboard layout with the only machine with which I'd have that is my workstation at home, and only as long as I have an US keyboard connected to it. And remember, German keyboards don't have an Alt key on the right, so what do you suggest how I would configure all those after I painstakingly learned where to press Alt and Ctrl? For keyboards that have the retarded windows keys, I usually put either Alt or Ctrl on them because that gets less in the way, but only at home. Unfortunately, pulling those key caps doesn't really help because the keys remain. > > If you want to get a Model M, go for it. It's still overall the best > > keyboard you can get. The original ones have become expensive and > > hard to find and may be worn out after 30 years. Fortunately, you can > > get a new one from Unicomp, and that's very likely the better deal. > > > > Thank you for the recommendation. It sounds like a nice keyboard and > keyboards are worth investing in for typists, including programmers. > Although those keyboards are much better than laptop keyboards, my > suggestion to move the Ctrl keys is made after using it on laptop > keyboards for many years. Ah, well, I hate laptop keyboards and avoid using them as much as I can. They are unsuited for typing and some keys are in very wrong places, making them unusable for some things and generally not usable but unfriendly. It's acceptable for a makeshift solution because carrying a laptop is more than enough even without carrying a keyboard along with one. If I had to actually use my laptop, I'd carry a keyboard with it. Why don't they just make laptops with decent keyboards. > In fact, a critical consideration when buying > a laptop is whether it has the <Ctrl> and <Alt> keys in the locations > outlined above (that is, to the left and right of the <SPC> key). I > have rejected laptops that do not have that because it would lead to RSI > and make typing for programming significantly slower and more difficult. Try to find a laptop that has Home, End, Del, Insert, PgUp, PgDown and the like where they are supposed to be ... > > And my thumbs are pretty much the last fingers I'd use to press Ctrl > > when the rest of my fingers are at the home row. The home row is > > great for typing, not for moving around. I either type or move > > around, and for moving around, the dedicated movement keys are very > > convenient. How much do you move around on a typewriter? > > > > The point of the suggested move is to make typing easier and less > prone to RSI. It mostly isn’t even necessary to leave the home row (an > occasional <Alt>-<Tab> or <Super> key) and use the very large number of > Emacs key combinations. Key combinations become just like another kind > of "shift." It's also not necessary to torture myself. And again, try the emacs way of movement with ESC being the only Meta key you have. I'm sure that's gone be fun ;) > > > A suggestion to try is to reposition the keys and go through the Emacs > > > Tutorial (C-h t). That would provide practice using many Ctrl key > > > combinations and could help you decide whether this new approach is to > > > your liking. > > > > I did that in the 90ies on my Atari ST. You can still find pictures > > of the keyboards they used. How much sense do you think that tutorial > > made with these keyboards (their German version) --- and no, Alt > > didn't work for Meta but ESC did. > > > > It didn’t make sense and it lead to RSIs. Fortunately, since then > keyboards moved from having a single <Ctrl> key to having two, along > with two <Alt> keys. The Atari ST keyboards didn't lead to RSI. PC keyboards have differnt keys since a very long time. German keyboards still have only one Alt key ... > This, plus the ability to reconfigure the keyboard has mostly > eliminated RSI and increases typing speed (including Emacs’s > commands). Yes, after 30+ years I could finally configure my workstation to use Alt as Meta. It still doesn't work on my laptop or any other computer ... And it didn't lead to RSI ever. Just use a good keyboard, not a laptop keyboard. > [..] > > Your suggestions are good, only they don't work for me. > > OK. That was always a possibility. It is a suggestion for you to > consider and you still could reconsider now that you have seen it as a > possibility. Well, swapping Alt and Ctrl on the right might make some sense, but I sometimes press Ctrl-a and Ctrl-e with my right hand. Try that when swapped ... And it's too much configuration. > (I had RSI for years because I could not see how a simple > reconfiguration could fix the problem for me, and I wished I had > seen it suggested from the beginning. It is such a significantly > better arrangement that I wish it was documented in the Emacs > Manual. It could help many people overcome the problem of the > complicated key combinations being difficult and driving them not to > use Emacs.) Here’s hoping that it might be helpful for some other > reader who uses Emacs. Perhaps you could write a manual that can be included in Emacs. I've never had such isses and always used decent keyboards. Or quit trying to use laptop keyboards and get a decent keyboard. Nowadays you can get some decent ones, and which switches you like is personal preference. Just stay away from so-called "gaming keyboards" (or other "gaming" hardware). They can be incompatible, and stuff labled "gaming" either sucks and doesn't work right, or is way overpriced, or both. Also, move your hands some more instead of forcing them to remain in the home row and to bend themselves so unnaturally to the keyboard. It's good for them and the fingers when they can assume different positions and stretch in different ways and directions, like when pressing dedicated movement keys. Otherwise it's no wonder that you hurt yourself, especially with a laptop keyboard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-06 19:41 ` hw @ 2023-08-06 19:54 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2023-08-06 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs hw wrote: > Your suggestion does not work with a Germany keyboard, > especially when it has windows keys that get in the way. > There are probably other keyboards for different languages > with which it doesn't work, either. Have you > considered that? I haven't! But tell me, what is it that is supposed to work (or not work)? I have a US layout QWERTY keyboard and the Alt key works as Meta both in the Linux VTs and in X, in a GUI Emacs. This is the only setting I ever had to do xterm*metaSendsEscape: true in .Xresources, see e.g. [1] Building your own keyboard sounds like fun tho, but since a keyboard is just a bunch of rows with buttons surely programming them with software must be the first stop to configuring them :) [1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.Xresources -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-02 14:29 ` hw @ 2023-08-02 15:05 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-03 13:50 ` hw 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-02 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw, help-gnu-emacs On 02/08/2023 16:21, hw wrote: > On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 07:54 +0000, Thibaut Verron wrote: >>> With -Q ... with -q, it says "x is undefined" in the message buffer. >> That is... extremely strange. > What do you expect to happen? It's one thing that Alt-x is translated as x, but I don't get x why x isn't mapped to self-insert-command. Not really relevant to your problem, just curious. >> What about C-h k x ? > emacs -Q: x runs the command self-insert-command > emacs -q: x is undefined >> If you are on X, can you use xev to confirm that it sends the correct keycode? > I could switch back to see what it sends, but since I want to use > wayland, there isn't much point ... It is just that xev is a X utility, I didn't expect it to work at all on wayland. It would still be nice to know if it is the same on X (then the problem is with your general configuration) or not (then the problem is with wayland), but already your results give a lot of information. > When I start xev in vterm in emacs in wayland, it says > KeyPress event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, > root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44020369, (3073,685), root:(3123,812), > state 0x10, keycode 64 (keysym 0xfe03, ISO_Level3_Shift), same_screen YES, > XLookupString gives 0 bytes: > XmbLookupString gives 0 bytes: > XFilterEvent returns: False > > KeyRelease event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, > root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44020562, (3073,685), root:(3123,812), > state 0x90, keycode 64 (keysym 0xfe03, ISO_Level3_Shift), same_screen YES, > XLookupString gives 0 bytes: > XFilterEvent returns: False Assuming that xev works fine with wayland, yes that doesn't seem right. > for *left* Alt and > > > KeyPress event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, > root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44174354, (159,-25), root:(209,102), > state 0x10, keycode 108 (keysym 0xffea, Alt_R), same_screen YES, > XLookupString gives 0 bytes: > XmbLookupString gives 0 bytes: > XFilterEvent returns: False > > KeyRelease event, serial 38, synthetic NO, window 0xe00001, > root 0x378, subw 0x0, time 44174482, (159,-25), root:(209,102), > state 0x18, keycode 108 (keysym 0xffea, Alt_R), same_screen YES, > XLookupString gives 0 bytes: > XFilterEvent returns: False > > > for *right* Alt. I guess it should say Alt_L for *left* Alt. So that confirms that your right alt should work as meta. > So at least that's interesting --- but how do I get the left Alt key > to work right? > > I haven't been able to find out how to change keyboard layouts with > wayland. There must be some place where they are defined because > there is many premade keyboard layouts I can pick from for all kinds > of different languages. > > This seems to be one of these stupid gnome issues. In gnome, there is > Settings-->Keyboard-->Alternate Characters Key, and the key you pick > there gets disabled 🙁 > > How do I turn this off? I don't need this and it gets in the way. Unfortunately I use neither gnome nor wayland. On X, regardless of the DE I'd use setxkbmap to get my keyboard exactly as I want it, is there something like that on wayland? Otherwise, perhaps selecting a keyboard layout without 3rd level characters would do the trick -- but you already said you don't know how to change keyboard layouts. If one alt/meta is enough for you, you could also just set this key to be right alt and then left alt should work fine. Best wishes, Thibaut ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 15:05 ` Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-03 13:50 ` hw 0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-03 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 17:05 +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: > On 02/08/2023 16:21, hw wrote: > > On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 07:54 +0000, Thibaut Verron wrote: > > > > With -Q ... with -q, it says "x is undefined" in the message buffer. > > > That is... extremely strange. > > What do you expect to happen? > > It's one thing that Alt-x is translated as x, but I don't get x why x > isn't mapped to self-insert-command. > > Not really relevant to your problem, just curious. Apparently the splash-screen doesn't have x defined. I tried this under X11 with Fedoras emacs; the version I compiled doesn't like to run under X11: /usr/bin/emacs --version GNU Emacs 28.2 in the splash screen: GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 1, x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.38, cairo version 1.17.8) of 2023-06-05 with the so-called Alternate Characters Key set to Right Super: Left-Alt works as Meta /usr/bin/emacs -q in the splash screen: C-h k Alt-x: M-x runs the command execute-extended-command C-h k x: x is undefined C-h k l: l is undefined C-h k x: q runs the command exit-splash-screen in the *scratch* buffer: C-h k x: x runs the command self-insert-command C-h k q: q runs the command self-insert-command C-h k l: l runs the command self-insert-command /usr/bin/emacs -Q doesn't show the splash screen in the *scratch* buffer: C-h k Alt-x: M-x runs the command execute-extended-command C-h k x: x runs the command self-insert-command C-h k q: q runs the command self-insert-command C-h k l: l runs the command self-insert-command with the so-called Alternate Characters Key set to Left Alt: Left-Alt doesn't work as Meta /usr/bin/emacs -q in the splash screen: C-h k Alt-x: x is undefined C-h k x: x is undefined C-h k l: l is undefined C-h k x: q runs the command exit-splash-screen in the *scratch* buffer: C-h k x: x runs the command self-insert-command C-h k q: q runs the command self-insert-command C-h k l: l runs the command self-insert-command /usr/bin/emacs -Q doesn't show the splash screen in the *scratch* buffer: C-h k Alt-x: x runs the command self-insert-command C-h k x: x runs the command self-insert-command C-h k q: q runs the command self-insert-command C-h k l: l runs the command self-insert-command That seems pretty consistent. > > > What about C-h k x ? > > emacs -Q: x runs the command self-insert-command > > emacs -q: x is undefined > > > If you are on X, can you use xev to confirm that it sends the correct keycode? > > I could switch back to see what it sends, but since I want to use > > wayland, there isn't much point ... > > It is just that xev is a X utility, I didn't expect it to work at all on > wayland. Wayland is pretty cool :) > It would still be nice to know if it is the same on X (then the problem > is with your general configuration) or not (then the problem is with > wayland), but already your results give a lot of information. See above ... The problem is the stupid idea to have a so-called Alternate Characters Key without an option to turn that off. I understand the idea that there could be characters that are unreachable with such a key. Yet what and which characters those are would depend on the keyboard layout both in soft- and hardware. This is very problematic, though: For example, when I use a German keyboard layout in software, I don't have a right Alt key but AltGr like I would have with keyboard that has a physical layout like that. In that case, I would need to pick AltGr as so-called Alternate Characters Key --- but I can't pick that because the option just isn't there. And I don't need it because AltGr is this very key, so again I would turn it off if I could rather than wasting a precious key for this. (I don't know what a "Right Super" key is supposed to be, though. I've never seen a keyboard that has one.) An why isn't this key called ISO_level_shift3 so it would make sense? "Alternate Characters Key" doesn't make any sense to anyone. If we could just turn it off, I guess everyone would be happy ... > [...] > > This seems to be one of these stupid gnome issues. In gnome, there is > > Settings-->Keyboard-->Alternate Characters Key, and the key you pick > > there gets disabled 🙁 > > > > How do I turn this off? I don't need this and it gets in the way. > > Unfortunately I use neither gnome nor wayland. On X, regardless of the > DE I'd use setxkbmap to get my keyboard exactly as I want it, is there > something like that on wayland? I couldn't find anything with wayland that would allow one to configure they keyboard layout. With gnome and KDE I expect to find something in the settings that lets us configure every key on the keyboard we're using to whatever we like, but it's missing. It was relatively easy with xkbmap with X11. > Otherwise, perhaps selecting a keyboard layout without 3rd level > characters would do the trick -- but you already said you don't know how > to change keyboard layouts. I can only pick from the ones that are predefined, they're in the settings. But I can't change the keyboard layout. It's fine as long as I'm using a keyboard with a physical US layout. If I were to use a German keyboard it would drive me insane because there are some keys I need to reconfigure for it to be usable, and I can't do that with wayland. > If one alt/meta is enough for you, you could also just set this key to > be right alt and then left alt should work fine. It's a big advantage to me to have both Alt keys working. When they came up with the idea of an AltGr key, they should never have omitted the right Alt key. (German keyboard layouts are quite awful. Frequently used keys are difficult to access on them. Programmers pick keys that are easy to use on their keyboards, and I'm guessing that 90% or more of them must have US keyboards, making everthing difficult for everyone else. I can't blame them, it's something that doesn't come to mind. The so-called Alternate Characters Key is one of these examples, they simply don't get it because it's entirely outside their experience, and things like that don't get fixed for many years ...) Now what wonders me is why the left Alt key never worked before in emacs. It hasn't worked for like 30 years and now it finally does. ESC for meta is not a good replacement. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 11:55 vterm and Meta? hw 2023-08-01 12:12 ` Thibaut Verron @ 2023-08-01 19:01 ` Akib Azmain Turja 2023-08-02 0:45 ` hw 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Akib Azmain Turja @ 2023-08-01 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1059 bytes --] hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > Hi, > > I'm trying out vterm and it turns out that I can't use the ESC key > when within a vterm buffer: i. e. I don't have the meta key anymore > because that gets sent to the terminal rather than emacs. > > According to [1], I could maybe remove the ESC key from vterm-mode-map > --- but it seems desirable to be able to use the ESC key for programs > that might run in vterm. > > How do you deal with this? Do you use another key for the meta key > other programs are less likely to make use of than the ESC key? > > > [1]: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm#shell-side-configuration > > I use Eat BTW. Eat doesn't bind 'ESC', instead it binds 'ESC ESC' to send ESC. This allows me to send meta-keys. When I need to send ESC, I just press ESC twice. I believe this can be done in Vterm too. -- Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-01 19:01 ` Akib Azmain Turja @ 2023-08-02 0:45 ` hw 2023-08-02 9:02 ` Akib Azmain Turja 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-02 0:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 01:01 +0600, Akib Azmain Turja wrote: > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > > > Hi, > > > > I'm trying out vterm and it turns out that I can't use the ESC key > > when within a vterm buffer: i. e. I don't have the meta key anymore > > because that gets sent to the terminal rather than emacs. > > > > According to [1], I could maybe remove the ESC key from vterm-mode-map > > --- but it seems desirable to be able to use the ESC key for programs > > that might run in vterm. > > > > How do you deal with this? Do you use another key for the meta key > > other programs are less likely to make use of than the ESC key? > > > > > > [1]: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm#shell-side-configuration > > > > > > I use Eat BTW. Eat? Is that another terminal for emacs? > Eat doesn't bind 'ESC', instead it binds 'ESC ESC' to > send ESC. This allows me to send meta-keys. When I need to send ESC, I > just press ESC twice. So do you also need to use ESC as Meta key? > I believe this can be done in Vterm too. Perhaps it can ... It would be easier if I could use Alt instead of ESC for Meta. How could I do that? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 0:45 ` hw @ 2023-08-02 9:02 ` Akib Azmain Turja 2023-08-02 18:01 ` Emanuel Berg 2023-08-03 14:15 ` hw 0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: Akib Azmain Turja @ 2023-08-02 9:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1825 bytes --] hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 01:01 +0600, Akib Azmain Turja wrote: >> hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I'm trying out vterm and it turns out that I can't use the ESC key >> > when within a vterm buffer: i. e. I don't have the meta key anymore >> > because that gets sent to the terminal rather than emacs. >> > >> > According to [1], I could maybe remove the ESC key from vterm-mode-map >> > --- but it seems desirable to be able to use the ESC key for programs >> > that might run in vterm. >> > >> > How do you deal with this? Do you use another key for the meta key >> > other programs are less likely to make use of than the ESC key? >> > >> > >> > [1]: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm#shell-side-configuration >> > >> > >> >> I use Eat BTW. > > Eat? Is that another terminal for emacs? Yes. https://codeberg.org/akib/emacs-eat :D Disclaimer: I'm the author. ;) > >> Eat doesn't bind 'ESC', instead it binds 'ESC ESC' to >> send ESC. This allows me to send meta-keys. When I need to send ESC, I >> just press ESC twice. > > So do you also need to use ESC as Meta key? I usually use Alt as Meta key, but I can also use ESC as the meta (though I hardly do that, Alt is easier for me). >> I believe this can be done in Vterm too. > > Perhaps it can ... It would be easier if I could use Alt instead of > ESC for Meta. How could I do that? VTerm is a nice terminal emulator, but it's key bindings are kinda messed up IMHO. You need to fix it yourself. It isn't tough, but I forgot exactly how to do it. -- Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 9:02 ` Akib Azmain Turja @ 2023-08-02 18:01 ` Emanuel Berg 2023-08-03 14:15 ` hw 1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2023-08-02 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Akib Azmain Turja wrote: > VTerm is a nice terminal emulator Yeah, fast! > but it's key bindings are kinda messed up IMHO That was my experience as well, well, not messed up necessarily, I'm sure they made sense to the person who set them up ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-02 9:02 ` Akib Azmain Turja 2023-08-02 18:01 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2023-08-03 14:15 ` hw 2023-08-03 18:49 ` Akib Azmain Turja 1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-03 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 15:02 +0600, Akib Azmain Turja wrote: > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > > > On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 01:01 +0600, Akib Azmain Turja wrote: > > > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I'm trying out vterm and it turns out that I can't use the ESC key > > > > when within a vterm buffer: i. e. I don't have the meta key anymore > > > > because that gets sent to the terminal rather than emacs. > > > > > > > > According to [1], I could maybe remove the ESC key from vterm-mode-map > > > > --- but it seems desirable to be able to use the ESC key for programs > > > > that might run in vterm. > > > > > > > > How do you deal with this? Do you use another key for the meta key > > > > other programs are less likely to make use of than the ESC key? > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm#shell-side-configuration > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I use Eat BTW. > > > > Eat? Is that another terminal for emacs? > > Yes. https://codeberg.org/akib/emacs-eat :D > Disclaimer: I'm the author. ;) Cool, it looks interesting :) I haven't seen vterm flicker, though. Perhaps it's because I'm running emacs on wayland? > > > Eat doesn't bind 'ESC', instead it binds 'ESC ESC' to > > > send ESC. This allows me to send meta-keys. When I need to send ESC, I > > > just press ESC twice. > > > > So do you also need to use ESC as Meta key? > > I usually use Alt as Meta key, but I can also use ESC as the meta > (though I hardly do that, Alt is easier for me). Yes, Alt is much easier. It never worked before, though. > > > I believe this can be done in Vterm too. > > > > Perhaps it can ... It would be easier if I could use Alt instead of > > ESC for Meta. How could I do that? > > VTerm is a nice terminal emulator, but it's key bindings are kinda > messed up IMHO. You need to fix it yourself. It isn't tough, but I > forgot exactly how to do it. Hm, I've found that I can't use emacs on a remote machine when connecting via ssh in vterm to a tmux session on that machine because the local emacs intercepts the key presses and it uses them for itself before they make it to the remote emacs. I'm not sure what to do about that yet ... Mabe eat is the way to go? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-03 14:15 ` hw @ 2023-08-03 18:49 ` Akib Azmain Turja 2023-08-04 20:30 ` hw 0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread From: Akib Azmain Turja @ 2023-08-03 18:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hw; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2913 bytes --] hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: > On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 15:02 +0600, Akib Azmain Turja wrote: >> hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: >> >> > On Wed, 2023-08-02 at 01:01 +0600, Akib Azmain Turja wrote: >> > > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes: >> > > >> > > > Hi, >> > > > >> > > > I'm trying out vterm and it turns out that I can't use the ESC key >> > > > when within a vterm buffer: i. e. I don't have the meta key anymore >> > > > because that gets sent to the terminal rather than emacs. >> > > > >> > > > According to [1], I could maybe remove the ESC key from vterm-mode-map >> > > > --- but it seems desirable to be able to use the ESC key for programs >> > > > that might run in vterm. >> > > > >> > > > How do you deal with this? Do you use another key for the meta key >> > > > other programs are less likely to make use of than the ESC key? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > [1]: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm#shell-side-configuration >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > I use Eat BTW. >> > >> > Eat? Is that another terminal for emacs? >> >> Yes. https://codeberg.org/akib/emacs-eat :D >> Disclaimer: I'm the author. ;) > > Cool, it looks interesting :) > > I haven't seen vterm flicker, though. Perhaps it's because I'm > running emacs on wayland? > VTerm doesn't usually flicker in most cases, but some heavy full-screen problems (like Emacs) flickers on my machine. However, my machine is 11 years old. So maybe my machine isn't fast enough. ;) >> > > Eat doesn't bind 'ESC', instead it binds 'ESC ESC' to >> > > send ESC. This allows me to send meta-keys. When I need to send ESC, I >> > > just press ESC twice. >> > >> > So do you also need to use ESC as Meta key? >> >> I usually use Alt as Meta key, but I can also use ESC as the meta >> (though I hardly do that, Alt is easier for me). > > Yes, Alt is much easier. It never worked before, though. > >> > > I believe this can be done in Vterm too. >> > >> > Perhaps it can ... It would be easier if I could use Alt instead of >> > ESC for Meta. How could I do that? >> >> VTerm is a nice terminal emulator, but it's key bindings are kinda >> messed up IMHO. You need to fix it yourself. It isn't tough, but I >> forgot exactly how to do it. > > Hm, I've found that I can't use emacs on a remote machine when > connecting via ssh in vterm to a tmux session on that machine because > the local emacs intercepts the key presses and it uses them for itself > before they make it to the remote emacs. > > I'm not sure what to do about that yet ... Mabe eat is the way to go? Eat makes running Emacs inside Emacs (inside Emacs...) completely effortless. :D -- Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: vterm and Meta? 2023-08-03 18:49 ` Akib Azmain Turja @ 2023-08-04 20:30 ` hw 0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread From: hw @ 2023-08-04 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 00:49 +0600, Akib Azmain Turja wrote: > [..] > > > > > I use Eat BTW. > > > > > > > > Eat? Is that another terminal for emacs? > > > > > > Yes. https://codeberg.org/akib/emacs-eat :D > > > Disclaimer: I'm the author. ;) > > > > Cool, it looks interesting :) > > > > I haven't seen vterm flicker, though. Perhaps it's because I'm > > running emacs on wayland? > > > > VTerm doesn't usually flicker in most cases, but some heavy full-screen > problems (like Emacs) flickers on my machine. > > However, my machine is 11 years old. So maybe my machine isn't fast > enough. ;) Perhaps you can switch the graphics card for a faster one. A fast card makes day and night difference. 11 years is a bit dated but unless you want to play games should be ok, at least if it was a good machine to begin with. > [..] > > Hm, I've found that I can't use emacs on a remote machine when > > connecting via ssh in vterm to a tmux session on that machine because > > the local emacs intercepts the key presses and it uses them for itself > > before they make it to the remote emacs. > > > > I'm not sure what to do about that yet ... Mabe eat is the way to go? > > Eat makes running Emacs inside Emacs (inside Emacs...) completely > effortless. :D Hm I think I should try it out :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-08-06 19:54 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 36+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-08-01 11:55 vterm and Meta? hw 2023-08-01 12:12 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-01 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-01 14:40 ` how to configure Meta key with wayland (was: vterm and Meta?) hw 2023-08-01 15:05 ` vterm and Meta? Spencer Baugh 2023-08-01 16:36 ` hw 2023-08-03 19:56 ` Spencer Baugh 2023-08-01 15:09 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-01 16:25 ` hw 2023-08-01 19:54 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-02 0:39 ` hw 2023-08-02 7:54 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-02 14:21 ` hw 2023-08-02 14:29 ` hw 2023-08-02 15:10 ` Yuri Khan 2023-08-03 14:02 ` hw 2023-08-03 19:46 ` tpeplt 2023-08-03 21:32 ` hw 2023-08-03 22:29 ` tpeplt 2023-08-04 20:08 ` hw 2023-08-04 21:20 ` PierGianLuca 2023-08-06 16:32 ` hw 2023-08-06 17:09 ` PierGianLuca 2023-08-06 17:39 ` Yuri Khan 2023-08-04 21:42 ` tpeplt 2023-08-06 19:41 ` hw 2023-08-06 19:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2023-08-02 15:05 ` Thibaut Verron 2023-08-03 13:50 ` hw 2023-08-01 19:01 ` Akib Azmain Turja 2023-08-02 0:45 ` hw 2023-08-02 9:02 ` Akib Azmain Turja 2023-08-02 18:01 ` Emanuel Berg 2023-08-03 14:15 ` hw 2023-08-03 18:49 ` Akib Azmain Turja 2023-08-04 20:30 ` hw
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