From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Burton Samograd Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:00:03 GMT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <87islsc6yz.fsf@kruhft.vc.shawcable.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1068498966 11719 80.91.224.253 (10 Nov 2003 21:16:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 10 22:16:03 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AJJOE-0004rL-00 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:16:03 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AJKKl-000670-Vc for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:16:31 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.84.175.238 Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:vGP1X8meM2iPITvaObgxYufiX9Y= Original-Lines: 44 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca Original-X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1068498003 24.69.255.206 (Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:00:03 MST) Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:00:03 MST Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:118074 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:14012 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:14012 Stefan Monnier writes: >> My point was that the rut occupied by C, python, perl, etc is wide and >> shallow compared to the rather narrow and deep rut occupied by lisp. > > Seeing how much trouble you seem to have getting from your C rut to > elisp's, I have a hard time understanding why you consider the C rut as > being wide and shallow. > > I still haven't heard from a Lisp hacker who found it difficult to switch to > C or Java (painful, yes of course, but not difficult, except maybe for manual > memory management), so I'd say that Lisp's rut is rather shallow indeed. >>From my experience, switching to lisp is a bit more work than the other way around, due to the type of people that helped shape lisp in the first place. C and UNIX were developed around the "worse is better" type philosophy, where LISPy systems were more focused on the consistent and perfect side. Each philosophy has it's advantages, but the perfect side has the drawback of having to learn idiosyncratic perfections, rather than diving in and just doing something. Current operating systems have evolved from the experience and knowledge of UNIX systems, where Common Lisp evolved from the now defunct LISP machines of the 80's. Emacs seems one of the last bastions of LISP being found in production work (there are exceptions, but they aren't heard of them that much anymore), and even still it's not part of the production process and lies in the users own desire and drive to learn, which requires un-learning many things before the power and beauty of lisp can be fully realized. For the ones that want to attack the LISP learning curve there are plenty of resources available from the existing LISP community, but don't expect much help if you dive in and start telling them thier language should be changed because you "don't get it". LISP is great and LISP is fun, but it's still a programming language, but much more akin to a sketchbook than a paintroller. Sketching is quite fun, but with lisp the finalization of programs (such as for relesase) can be obscure and won't be found with much research, guidance and the ability to accept things how they are, at least for the time being. My 2cents based on my research, -- burton samograd http://kruhftwerk.dyndns.org