From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Iteration macros (was: [External] : Re: Closures - do you understand them well?) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:08:25 +0100 Message-ID: <87ilh4yuae.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87lenh7vrn.fsf@web.de> <87tu25d77o.fsf@gnu.org> <87h6y5pt8k.fsf@web.de> <87bkodpqnk.fsf@web.de> <87tu24yowj.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35352"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:iv442YsDL4a+MRUBNQ3sh8h6c6g= Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 19 12:34:31 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pITBe-0008wy-E4 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:34:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pITBW-0000hG-FN; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 06:34:24 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pI6J3-0002uQ-Vr for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 06:08:38 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pI6J2-0006Pz-Ag for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 06:08:37 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pI6Iz-0003sm-H1 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:08:33 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 06:33:59 -0500 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:142399 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote: >> But it's also the case that for a _user_ the syntax of >> `(cl-)loop' is complex - certainly much more complex than >> the usual Lisp syntax. You essentially have to learn >> another language - `loop' - to use it. > > That's what I meant, actually, yes. > > I'm not opposed to introducing specialized sublanguages > (after all, I've done that myself for `pcase`, `setf`, and > `bindat`, and I'm not opposed to things like `rx` or `peg`) On the contrary, they are cool, perhaps one shouldn't have one language completely made up of them, but here and there they are interesting for sure, add spice ... > but I think what annoys me in `cl-loop` is that you cannot > understand each subelement independently because the effect > of each element often depends on the presence/absence of > other elements or the place where it appears, ...: it's not > just a separate language but that language is not modular > (and hence in my view is a bad language design). But `cl-loop' has cool features as well, the multiple for loops "for" example ... Can't we have a `leap' (the Advanced Elisp to-the-Point Loop) that implements all loops known to programming but without the redundancy/intertanglement of keywords that in practice is a problem using `cl-loop' and understanding it's documentation ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal