From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Quote by Knuth Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:52:52 +0200 Message-ID: <87h7goe09n.fsf@zoho.eu> References: <20210705154121.GB6395@tuxteam.de> <878s2j2onn.fsf@zoho.eu> <87r1gbdr6d.fsf@zoho.eu> <877dhsfrxs.fsf@zoho.eu> <87eebv6zid.fsf@zoho.eu> <20210719070707.GA2832@tuxteam.de> Reply-To: Emanuel Berg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27507"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:DwA7t7Ei2smJ7vTCJZXwjP4FvK0= Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 21 06:53:29 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m64Eb-0006vo-EO for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:53:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42890 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m64EZ-0003Nl-O1 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 00:53:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60052) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m64EE-0003Nd-L9 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 00:53:06 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:51106) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m64EB-0007GU-SW for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 00:53:06 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m64EA-0006UG-0y for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:53:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131914 Archived-At: Christopher Dimech wrote: > Thousands of other people have a doctorate in mathematics > apart from Knuth Hahaha :) > But I have read Knuth's papers and understand exactly his > position on what is literate programming. He mas not > combining "writing for humans" ("literature") and "writing > for machines" (programming). He wanted programming to be > like literature. Thusly I am in disagreement with him. But isn't that the same thing, isn't literature "writing for humans"? Well, it isn't programming anyway, try compiling "Collected Short Stories" by Ivan Tolstoyevksy and see what happens ... yeah, DNC ... but I've heard some HUMANS read it and thought it was good! (Maybe some of them just pretended to have read all 14 volumes.) > Without Knuth others would have delved into the analysis of > algorithms. Mostly it is about the development of tex > everybody gets fired about. Without tex, few would have > heard of him. Still, mathematical typesetting already > existed before Knuth. In actual fact, he got all his ideas > from the typesetting that already existed. In "Mathematical > Typography," Bulletin of the American Mathematical Society, > March 1979, Vol. 1, No. 2, 337-72; he stated that his > typesetting ideas originated from the Transactions of the > American Mathematical Society, which began publication in > 1900; and some other journal (a dutch one if I remember). Yeah, but regardless of whatever, science and all human progress works like that ... and that's a good thing. > And, let us not deny it, with a lot of help from Guy Steele. It is a GOOD thing he got help from other talented people! > TeX has got people to focus on pretty printing, which is > what typesetting is mainly about. But structural and > semantic info are receiving greater and greater awareness as > opposed to formatting or displaying aspects. LaTeX mended > some of the problems with TeX by turning a pretty printing > system into a structured documentation system. Again, 1. That's the purpose of the tool (and not _just_ "pretty" as you say, also useful, indispensable stuff like math notation, formulaes, diagrams, indexes, footnotes, hyperlinks, captions, tables ...) When ideas are compilicated this help A LOT to convey them, also PRODUCING such material help the people who are active with it in their creative/thought process. 2. Not all people should be the same, that would be horrible and a totally defuct world/race! Some people care about this stuff and that's good for them, YOU should be active in the fields that YOU care about, Stop waste time on negativism and get into the game yourself. PS. Some pretty good looking LaTeX if I may :) https://dataswamp.org/~incal/borta/borta.pdf - LITERATURE! https://dataswamp.org/~incal/hs-linux/docs/report/report.pdf - also FOR HUMANS but contains SOURCE - oh, my! what does that mean? I'm not a girl but is it GOOD or BAD? it is so hard to know! and if it stinks and didn't get a single citation which would BTW put in in the top echelon of the military-scholarly-publicistic complex - all acording to our man on the field covering the university world, Mr. Dimech - how do you check that BTW, the number of citations? - anyway if it stink is it beacuse I spent too much time on LaTeX [2] and forgor about the actual task? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Querulant [2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/hs-linux/docs/report/report.tex -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal