M-TAB already used by KDE

M-TAB already used by KDE

[Marcel Schmittfull]

Hi
I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?

Thanks in advance !
Marcel

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[David Kastrup]

marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> Hi
> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 
> 
> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
> M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?

Why don't you just type <ESC> <TAB> ?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Mark Mynsted]

>>>>> "Marcel" == Marcel Schmittfull <marcel-sl@gmx.de> writes:
Marcel> Hi
Marcel> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
Marcel> switching between windows. 

Hmm.  To me M-Tab is "already" used by Emacs rather than the other way
around, but then I prefer ratpoison to KDE anyway...  The keybindings
for ratpoison are more Emacs friendly.  ratpoison is not ideal if you
open any close many tiny windows, but if you are like me and have a
small number of "fullscreen" windows, it is quite nice.

http://ratpoison.sourceforge.net/

Marcel>Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
Marcel> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
Marcel> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
Marcel> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

Marcel> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
Marcel> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
Marcel> M-<TAB> ? 

Yes, by using key maps.

Marcel>I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
Marcel> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
Marcel> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?

OK, I am not exactly clear about what you want.  Do you want a global
keybinding for all modes, or a keybinding for specific modes? (Maybe
my nomenclature is imperfect here.)

As I recall, to use a key map for a specific mode, you simply define a
mode map, then make the mode map active when you start that mode.

Here is some information from the info page regarding Local
Keymaps. (See keys in the Emacs info documentation.)

"
   For example, the command `texinfo-mode' to select Texinfo mode runs
the hook `texinfo-mode-hook'.  Here's how you can use the hook to add
local bindings (not very useful, we admit) for `C-c n' and `C-c p' in
Texinfo mode:

     (add-hook 'texinfo-mode-hook
               '(lambda ()
                  (define-key texinfo-mode-map "\C-cp"
                              'backward-paragraph)
                  (define-key texinfo-mode-map "\C-cn"
                              'forward-paragraph)))

"
-- 
-MM
I rarely read email from this address          /"\
because of spam.                               \ /     ASCII Ribbon Campaign
I MAY see it if you put #NOTSPAM#               X      Against HTML Mail
in the subject line.                           / \

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Marcel Schmittfull]

David Kastrup <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> wrote:

>marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:
>
>> Hi
>> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
>> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
>> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
>> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
>> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 
>> 
>> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
>> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
>> M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
>> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
>> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?
>
>Why don't you just type <ESC> <TAB> ?
>
>-- 
>David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Yes ok, this works. But for me it's very awkward to type <ESC><TAB>
since I've to leave the ground position of my left hand on the
keyboard (on an usual German keyboard; probably that's quite different
from English ones). Since I'm going to use completion _very_ often, I
would be very happy about an easier keybinding...

TIA
Marcel

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Marcel Schmittfull]

Mark Mynsted <mmynsted_news@gbronline.com> wrote:

>>>>>> "Marcel" == Marcel Schmittfull <marcel-sl@gmx.de> writes:
>Marcel> Hi
>Marcel> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
>Marcel> switching between windows. 
>
>Hmm.  To me M-Tab is "already" used by Emacs rather than the other way
>around, but then I prefer ratpoison to KDE anyway...  The keybindings
>for ratpoison are more Emacs friendly.  ratpoison is not ideal if you
>open any close many tiny windows, but if you are like me and have a
>small number of "fullscreen" windows, it is quite nice.
>
>http://ratpoison.sourceforge.net/

I'm quite happy with KDE and don't want to change it...

>
>Marcel>Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
>Marcel> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
>Marcel> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
>Marcel> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 
>
>Marcel> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
>Marcel> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
>Marcel> M-<TAB> ? 
>
>Yes, by using key maps.
>
>Marcel>I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
>Marcel> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
>Marcel> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?
>
>OK, I am not exactly clear about what you want.  Do you want a global
>keybinding for all modes, or a keybinding for specific modes? (Maybe
>my nomenclature is imperfect here.)
>
>As I recall, to use a key map for a specific mode, you simply define a
>mode map, then make the mode map active when you start that mode.
>
>Here is some information from the info page regarding Local
>Keymaps. (See keys in the Emacs info documentation.)
> [...]

OK, I'm going to define some keybindings in several keymaps now...

Thank you !
Marcel

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Benjamin Lewis]

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Marcel Schmittfull wrote:

> Yes ok, this works. But for me it's very awkward to type <ESC><TAB>
> since I've to leave the ground position of my left hand on the
> keyboard (on an usual German keyboard; probably that's quite different
> from English ones). Since I'm going to use completion _very_ often, I
> would be very happy about an easier keybinding...

Perhaps you could use a different key for Meta in emacs.  I use the
"Windows" key for windowmanager functions, and the "Alt" key as Meta in
emacs.  If KDE doesn't allow you to change key bindings, perhaps some
jiggery-pokery in .emacs and/or with xmodmap would allow the change in
emacs. (Assuming you have a such a key available).

-- 
Benjamin Lewis

On a paper submitted by a physicist colleague: 
"This isn't right.  This isn't even wrong."    -- Wolfgang Pauli

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Roman Belenov]

marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
> M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?

I have this in my .emacs to fight the same problem in MS Windows

(global-set-key [(hyper /)] (lambda () (interactive) (funcall
  (key-binding "\M-\t"))))

Change hyper-/ to whatever you like.
  

-- 
 							With regards, Roman.

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

One possibility is to use C-M-i instead of M-TAB.  This is not ideal,
I know.  The new KDE is supposed to be able to coexist with Emacs
better, but I find it's still not done, in KDE 3.0 at least.

I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever
that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.

With that patch, I use it as follows.  The keys labeled Alt generate
the Alt_L and Alt_R keysyms, the key(s) with a flag on them generate(s)
Meta_L (and Meta_R).  Then KDE sees the Alt keys as Alt and the flag
keys as "Win".  Then I can configure the KDE keybindings ("shortcuts")
so that Win-Tab can be used instead of Alt-Tab to switch between
windows.  (This is new in KDE 3 I think.)

And also, I tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.

Then I can use the keys labeled Alt as Meta keys in Emacs.

To find the patch you can look on savannah.gnu.org for the Emacs CVS
code.  The file is src/xterm.c and you can find it by scanning the
logs for my name.  This patch can be extracted from CVS and applied to
Emacs 21.2 (I've tested it with the 21.2.93 pretest which I'm
currently using, so I presume it works with 21.2 as well).
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Martin Schmitz <dosenfleisch@gmx.de> writes:

> Hey, c'mon, it's Unix. Of course one can change everything in KDE.

It's better now, but still not _quite_ perfect.  For example, the Win
modifier can only be used if you have a key that produces the Meta_L/R
keysym, not with Hyper_L/R.

Also, KDE really wants to use Alt for ...  hm.  What's the right word?
When it has a dialog box, some characters are underlined.  For
example, kprinter shows P_\bropertiers, with r underlined, and so you
can hit Alt-r to access this button, instead of clicking on it.  It's
not possible to use something other than Alt for this, AFAIK.

It would be quite convenient if it was possible to tell KDE to use
Hyper -- then Emacs wouldn't see Meta keysyms and thus would use Alt
instead of Meta.

But as it stands, the patch I wrote is required.
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Jochem Huhmann]

marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> Hi
> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

The most simple solution to this would be to configure KDE to use
M-<ESC> for window switching. It's much easier to change things in one
place (KDE) than in several places (Emacs).


        Jochem

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Marcel Schmittfull]

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Marcel Schmittfull wrote:
>
>> Yes ok, this works. But for me it's very awkward to type <ESC><TAB>
>> since I've to leave the ground position of my left hand on the
>> keyboard (on an usual German keyboard; probably that's quite different
>> from English ones). Since I'm going to use completion _very_ often, I
>> would be very happy about an easier keybinding...
>
>Perhaps you could use a different key for Meta in emacs.  I use the
>"Windows" key for windowmanager functions, and the "Alt" key as Meta in
>emacs.  If KDE doesn't allow you to change key bindings, perhaps some
>jiggery-pokery in .emacs and/or with xmodmap would allow the change in
>emacs. (Assuming you have a such a key available).

Yes, I have the "windows" key on my keyboard. What would I have to
write in my .emacs in order to use the "windows" key in the same
meaning as the "Alt" key ? That is I want the "alt" key and the
"windows" key to have both the same meaning in emacs, namely "Meta".

TIA
Marcel

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Benjamin Lewis]

On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Martin Schmitz wrote:

> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:
>> If KDE doesn't allow you to change key bindings,
> 
> Hey, c'mon, it's Unix. Of course one can change everything in KDE.

Some changes are easier than others, though.  I don't use KDE, so for all I
know you'd have to edit the source code to make these changes.

-- 
Benjamin Lewis

F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Marcel Schmittfull]

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Marcel Schmittfull wrote:
>
>> Yes ok, this works. But for me it's very awkward to type <ESC><TAB>
>> since I've to leave the ground position of my left hand on the
>> keyboard (on an usual German keyboard; probably that's quite different
>> from English ones). Since I'm going to use completion _very_ often, I
>> would be very happy about an easier keybinding...
>
>Perhaps you could use a different key for Meta in emacs.  I use the
>"Windows" key for windowmanager functions, and the "Alt" key as Meta in
>emacs.  If KDE doesn't allow you to change key bindings, perhaps some
>jiggery-pokery in .emacs and/or with xmodmap would allow the change in
>emacs. (Assuming you have a such a key available).

Yes, I have the "windows" key on my keyboard. What would I have to
write in my .emacs in order to use the "windows" key in the same
meaning as the "Alt" key ? That is I want the "alt" key and the
"windows" key to have both the same meaning in emacs, namely "Meta".

However, in comp.windows.x.kde nobody answers to my question about how
to change KDE keybindings. Hence I'd be happy about an solution in
emacs...

6Marcel

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> Yes, I have the "windows" key on my keyboard. What would I have to
> write in my .emacs in order to use the "windows" key in the same
> meaning as the "Alt" key ? That is I want the "alt" key and the
> "windows" key to have both the same meaning in emacs, namely "Meta".

There is no builtin functionality for doing this.  The problem is that
it's a modifier key.  You would have to make your own binding for all
M- bindings.  For example, this makes A-x the same as M-x:

(define-key function-key-map (kbd "A-x") (kbd "M-x"))

You can see that this quickly grows unwieldly, what with all the
characters and function keys and modifiers.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Martin Schmitz <dosenfleisch@gmx.de> writes:

> I remember that I was really annoyed if I saw that Emacs was listening
> to the Windows-Key as Meta after a fresh Debian Woody install. Then I
> changed something, probably in X11s xmodmap settings, and now KDE tells
> me that mod1 is Alt_L and mod4 is Super_L (KDE seems to know nothing
> about a Meta-Key anymore as I realize while I'm writing this). So,
> everything is fine know. Btw.: this is the default setup on SuSE-Linux.
>
> All the "windowing"-functions of KDE are now bound to Super-<anykey>,
> which is the "Windows-Key".

Really?  I didn't try the Super key, back then.  I only tried Hyper,
which didn't work.

So that's clearly a good solution: have Alt_L/R keysyms for the Alt
keys and Super_L/R keysyms for the `flag' keys.

Wirste öller als 'ne Kau, lernste immer noch datau...
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Fredrik Staxeng]

kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever
>that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.

The default should be to treat them synonymously. 

>And also, I tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.

And what Alt-bindings do you use in Emacs? Anything but iso-transl?

>Then I can use the keys labeled Alt as Meta keys in Emacs.

The proper way would be to have two settings, "Alt is really Super" and
"Meta is really Super". 


-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[asoyeur]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii, Size: 353 bytes --]

Marcel Schmittfull wrote:
> However, in comp.windows.x.kde nobody answers to my question about how
> to change KDE keybindings. Hence I'd be happy about an solution in
> emacs...
> 
> 6Marcel

Go  to Control Panel->LookNFeel->Keyboard Shortcuts and you can change 
everything you want ...


-- 
Alain Soyeur
Lycée Fermat Toulouse
http://asoyeur.free.fr

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>>I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever
>>that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.
>
> The default should be to treat them synonymously. 

Really?  Hm.  I've seen some Alt bindings here and there...

>>And also, I tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.
>
> And what Alt-bindings do you use in Emacs? Anything but iso-transl?

No, I don't use any alt bindings.  But it was very easy to swap them,
so that's what I did...

>>Then I can use the keys labeled Alt as Meta keys in Emacs.
>
> The proper way would be to have two settings, "Alt is really Super" and
> "Meta is really Super". 

Actually, there will be variables x-meta-keysym, x-alt-keysym,
x-hyper-keysym and x-super-keysym.  The value of each variable can be
meta, alt, hyper, or super.  Or nil.

The interpretation is as follows: if the x-hyper-keysym variable is
super, then Emacs will interpret Super_L and Super_R (are there two
such keys?) as Hyper internally.

I've never tried to see what happens if two variables have the same
value.  Maybe if x-alt-keysym and x-hyper-keysym are both `super',
then hitting Super-A will be interpreted as A-H-a.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Fredrik Staxeng]

kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
>
>> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>>
>>>I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever
>>>that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.
>>
>> The default should be to treat them synonymously. 
>
>Really?  Hm.  I've seen some Alt bindings here and there...

I have only seen iso-transl. But binding Alt instead of Meta assumes that
Alt is distinct from Meta. If you look at the reality of existing X
keyboard maps:

PC/101:     |Crtl|        |Alt | |    Space    | |Alt |              |Ctrl|
PC/104:     |Ctrl|  |Win| |Alt | |    Space    | |Alt | |Win| |Menu| |Ctrl|
Type 5:     |Ctrl|  |Alt| | <> | |    Space    | | <> | |Comp|       |AltGr|
Type 5/PC:  |Lock|  |Alt| | <> | |    Space    | | <> | |Comp|       |AltGr|

The <> key send Meta, and users of course expect it to works as a Meta
key in Emacs. The Alt key is distinct, and can be used for secondary 
functions. 

On the other hand, on the PC, it's best to use the Alt key for Meta
functions. It's there on all keyboards. It lets people freely move
between systems without rewiring their spinal cords. (If you assign
Meta to the Windows key, the ICCCM model breaks this. Of course, that
is exactly what the pc104 keymap did).

The best any program can do, is to use only one modifier, and make both
Alt and Meta invoke that modifier. Of course, there should be a way to
use the full capability of _any_ keyboard. But because of the historical
mistakes, it can't be done "out-of-the-box".


>> The proper way would be to have two settings, "Alt is really Super" and
>> "Meta is really Super". 
>
>Actually, there will be variables x-meta-keysym, x-alt-keysym,
>x-hyper-keysym and x-super-keysym.  The value of each variable can be
>meta, alt, hyper, or super.  Or nil.

If the default of x-meta-keysym is '(meta alt), then I am happy.
A minor quibble: I think that the x-alt-keysym is superfluous, 
and only serves to perpetrate the confusion.

>The interpretation is as follows: if the x-hyper-keysym variable is
>super, then Emacs will interpret Super_L and Super_R (are there two
>such keys?) as Hyper internally.

A Symbolics keyboard has two each of Control, Meta, Super, Hyper
and Symbol. I don't remember the LMI keyboard. These keyboards are 
not common enough to be relevant for the present discussion.

Of course, there is always the pressure to make Emacs conform to the
Windows keyboard bindings. The present discussion, and the existence
cua-mode proves this. Before moving in that direction, you should
realize that the Windows users won't be happy with Emacs until it
conforms fully. That is C-n means 'New File', create a new buffer
called "Untitled-n', and switch to it. Do it six times in a row, and you
are in "Untitled-6".

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>>Really?  Hm.  I've seen some Alt bindings here and there...
>
> I have only seen iso-transl. But binding Alt instead of Meta assumes that
> Alt is distinct from Meta.

Of course!

> The best any program can do, is to use only one modifier, and make both
> Alt and Meta invoke that modifier. Of course, there should be a way to
> use the full capability of _any_ keyboard. But because of the historical
> mistakes, it can't be done "out-of-the-box".

Yes, you've said that before.  I understand.  But I'm not sure if I
agree.  I have to think about it further.

> If the default of x-meta-keysym is '(meta alt), then I am happy.

Now that you bring it up, it would be a good idea to allow lists
instead of just symbols.  But that isn't implemented yet.

> A minor quibble: I think that the x-alt-keysym is superfluous, 
> and only serves to perpetrate the confusion.

=8-{

The alt, hyper, meta, super modifiers are very similar, only the
degree of usage differs.  So why would any of these variables be
superfluous?

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kester Clegg]

marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> Since I'm going to use completion _very_ often, I would be very happy
> about an easier keybinding...

Do you mean for dynamic expansion?  I use the Visual Studio binding of
<Alt>-<Space> (as it is in Windows), i.e. in .emacs:

(global-set-key (kbd "<M-SPC>") 'dabbrev-expand); expand word at point

Not sure if this is what you want, but I really like it!  :-)

-- 
************************************************************************
Kester Clegg				Dept. of Computer Science,
Research Assistant (UTC)		University of York, 
Tel (01904) 43 27 49			email: kester at cs.york.ac.uk
************************************************************************

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Fredrik Staxeng]

kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
>
>> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>>
>>>Really?  Hm.  I've seen some Alt bindings here and there...
>>
>> I have only seen iso-transl. But binding Alt instead of Meta assumes that
>> Alt is distinct from Meta.
>
>Of course!

And so provides a clue as to which keyboard the perpetrator has. :-)

>> The best any program can do, is to use only one modifier, and make both
>> Alt and Meta invoke that modifier. Of course, there should be a way to
>> use the full capability of _any_ keyboard. But because of the historical
>> mistakes, it can't be done "out-of-the-box".
>
>Yes, you've said that before.  I understand.  But I'm not sure if I
>agree.  I have to think about it further.

I think that the overriding goal is to make the keys adjacent to the
space bar work as Meta. I have used Emacs without a Meta key for a couple
of thousand hours, and the Emacs command set doesn't really work well
without it.

I can't see another way to do that, given that some X servers send
Meta for that key, and some X servers send Alt. 

The ICCCM method of looking for Meta keysyms in the modifier map
means that Meta functions move to the Windows key, _if_ you use the
pc104 keymap. If you use the pc101 keymap, the Meta functions are
on the Alt key. If you spill coffee on your pc104 keyboard and
plug in your old pc101 keyboard, you have no access to Meta 
functions at all. 

If this had been done sensibly, the pc104 would be a strict superset
of pc101 behaviourally. Then Linux distributions could use pc104 as
the default in the knowledge that it works even with pc101 keyboards.

>> If the default of x-meta-keysym is '(meta alt), then I am happy.
>
>Now that you bring it up, it would be a good idea to allow lists
>instead of just symbols.  But that isn't implemented yet.

What problem was this intended to solve then?

>> A minor quibble: I think that the x-alt-keysym is superfluous, 
>> and only serves to perpetrate the confusion.
>
>=8-{
>
>The alt, hyper, meta, super modifiers are very similar, only the
>degree of usage differs.  So why would any of these variables be
>superfluous?

Key names are just labels. What matters is the mapping from key
position to behaviour. The Emacs command set is designed with 
the expectation that there is a shift-like modifier key that
is given the name Meta. In reality, very few keyboards provide
a key labeled Meta, but they provide a convenient substitute.
It's labeled Alt on PC keyboards, and it is labeled <> on Sun
keyboards. 

Sun users know that their Alt key is not the same as the PC Alt key,
but PC users generally do not know the details of Sun keyboards.
They are used to that Alt is synonymous with Meta. Introducing a
different concept with the same name into Emacs is confusing.

On the other hand, Super and Hyper are unambigously distinct from
Meta/Alt. That is, instead of putting mappings on Alt, which 
assumes a Sun keyboard, put them on Super.

I suggested that Meta and Alt should be treated synoumously by
default, and that there should be two settings, x-meta-is-super and
x-alt-is-super. Then all users will have the keys adjacent to the
space bar as working meta keys. 

Then, the iso-transl Alt mappings are moved to Super. Sun users can
then put (setq x-alt-is-super t) in their .emacs to access those
bindings, and KDE users can use (setq x-meta-is-super t) to do the
same thing. Or they could make the key send Super, and not change 
Emacs at all. 

Your solution strikes me as a bit overengineered. I don't see the 
need for full generality here, especially since there are two
(or three) other general layers (xkb, xmodmap and Emacs keymaps).
The solution above is simpler to understand and use for the 
common practical cases I can imagine.

If you really want full generality, the most powerful solution
would be a x-key-translate-hook.

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Carsten Dominik]

>>>>> "MS" == Marcel Schmittfull <marcel-sl@gmx.de> writes:

MS> Hi
MS> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
MS> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
MS> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
MS> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
MS> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

MS> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
MS> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
MS> M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
MS> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
MS> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?


In KDE 3, it is finally possible to remove the window switching
command from M-TAB, which will make it available for Emacs and other
application.  AFAIK, this was not possible in KDE 1 and 2, but this
serious BUG has been addressed now.

In the KDE 3 control panel, go to Look&Feel - Shortcuts
and change the binding for System - Navigation - Walk Through Windows

- Carsten

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>>> If the default of x-meta-keysym is '(meta alt), then I am happy.
>>
>>Now that you bring it up, it would be a good idea to allow lists
>>instead of just symbols.  But that isn't implemented yet.
>
> What problem was this intended to solve then?

KDE really really wants to see Alt_L and Alt_R keysyms for meta-like
functionality.  So using (setq x-meta-keysym 'alt), I can use them for
meta-like functionality in Emacs, too.

> Key names are just labels. What matters is the mapping from key
> position to behaviour. The Emacs command set is designed with 
> the expectation that there is a shift-like modifier key that
> is given the name Meta. In reality, very few keyboards provide
> a key labeled Meta, but they provide a convenient substitute.
> It's labeled Alt on PC keyboards, and it is labeled <> on Sun
> keyboards. 

Yes.

> Sun users know that their Alt key is not the same as the PC Alt key,
> but PC users generally do not know the details of Sun keyboards.
> They are used to that Alt is synonymous with Meta. Introducing a
> different concept with the same name into Emacs is confusing.
>
> On the other hand, Super and Hyper are unambigously distinct from
> Meta/Alt. That is, instead of putting mappings on Alt, which 
> assumes a Sun keyboard, put them on Super.

And what do people do who had Super bindings before?

You are suggestion to remove modifiers.  This is not a good idea.
People with foot pedals will hate you!

> Your solution strikes me as a bit overengineered. I don't see the 
> need for full generality here, especially since there are two
> (or three) other general layers (xkb, xmodmap and Emacs keymaps).
> The solution above is simpler to understand and use for the 
> common practical cases I can imagine.
>
> If you really want full generality, the most powerful solution
> would be a x-key-translate-hook.

Yes.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll have to think about that
"overengineered" part.  Hmmm...

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Fredrik Staxeng]

>> On the other hand, Super and Hyper are unambigously distinct from
>> Meta/Alt. That is, instead of putting mappings on Alt, which 
>> assumes a Sun keyboard, put them on Super.
>
>And what do people do who had Super bindings before?

Unless they also were using Alt (not Meta) bindings, things will 
continue to work as before. People who were using Alt bindings
before would have to move them though. 

But I was talking about bindings in /usr/share/emacs/21.2/lisp, that is
default bindings delivered with Emacs. Are there any Super bindings 
there that might clash with the Alt bindings that are there?

>You are suggestion to remove modifiers.  This is not a good idea.
>People with foot pedals will hate you!

What's the name in Emacs for mod5? If there is somebody using more than
three distinct modifiers (five including Shift and Control), then
obviously a name could be invented for them. 

I think the pain would be miniscule, and that the gain in clarity 
would be worth it. It is hard to discuss technical matters without
precise terminology, as can be seen from the perennial "Why doesn't
my delete key work?" threads. 

But perhaps not. Maybe there are a number of users with very elaborate
modifier maps. Then probably my two variables should be replaced by a
single alist, x-modifiers, with default value 
    '((alt . meta) (meta . meta))
x-alt-is-super would be 
    '((alt . super) (meta . meta))
x-meta-is-super would be 
    '((alt . meta) (meta . super))
Present default:
    '((alt . alt) (meta . meta))
A Sun users forced onto a PC:
    '((alt . meta) (meta . alt))
A user with a full octave foot pedal
    '((mod6 . c) (mod7 . ciss) (mod8 . d) (mod9 . diss)

>Yes.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll have to think about that
>"overengineered" part.  Hmmm...

I said "a bit overengineered". Nothing like, say the Solaris print spooler.

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> What's the name in Emacs for mod5?

Emacs does not have a name for this.  Emacs looks in the (equivalent
of the) output of "xmodmap -pm" for the modifiers.

So if the mod4 line contains the Meta_L or Meta_R keysym, then mod4
will be considered the meta modifier.
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Fredrik Staxeng]

kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
>
>> What's the name in Emacs for mod5?
>
>Emacs does not have a name for this.  Emacs looks in the (equivalent
>of the) output of "xmodmap -pm" for the modifiers.

I found a picture of the space-cadet keyboard on the web:

http://screenshots.sourceforge.net/misc/SpaceCadet1.jpg

The web page says that this was used with LMI machines as well. It has
Shift, Ctrl, Meta, Super, Hyper, Greek and Top. The X keyboard model
is definitely not enough to support this keyboard. 

But anyway, since there is no specific name for mod5 there is no way
to use five distinct modifiers (in addition to Shift and Ctlr) with
Emacs, is there? 

With universal UTF-8 support just around the corner, people might 
want to put real alphas etc in their Tex/Nroff documents. Thus a 
Greek modifier is needed :-)


-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Benjamin Lewis]

On 20 Dec 2002, Fredrik Staxeng wrote:

> I found a picture of the space-cadet keyboard on the web:
> 
> http://screenshots.sourceforge.net/misc/SpaceCadet1.jpg

Cool.  I'd love a keyboard with "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" keys.

-- 
Benjamin Lewis

On a paper submitted by a physicist colleague: 
"This isn't right.  This isn't even wrong."    -- Wolfgang Pauli

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[yuan]

Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> >Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
> ...
> I found a picture of the space-cadet keyboard on the web:
> 
> http://screenshots.sourceforge.net/misc/SpaceCadet1.jpg
> 
> The web page says that this was used with LMI machines as well. It has
> Shift, Ctrl, Meta, Super, Hyper, Greek and Top. The X keyboard model
> is definitely not enough to support this keyboard. 
> 
> But anyway, since there is no specific name for mod5 there is no way
> to use five distinct modifiers (in addition to Shift and Ctlr) with
> Emacs, is there? 
> 
> With universal UTF-8 support just around the corner, people might 
> want to put real alphas etc in their Tex/Nroff documents. Thus a 
> Greek modifier is needed :-)

I have setup my pc101 keyboard to have Emacs recognized all Escape, Meta,
Alt, Control, Super, Hyper, Shift, etc etc.  Below is my ~/.Xmodmap, which
makes my keyboard look like this:

[Control]
[Shift]   .....................................[Shift]
[Fn/Multi] [Hyper] [Meta] [Space] [Alt] [Super]

I hope everyone adopt this map so there is nonzero chance that I'll still
be able to function when forced to use others' keyboard.  :)
______________________________________________________________________________
clear Control
clear Lock
clear mod1
clear mod2
clear mod3
clear mod4
clear mod5

keysym Control_L = Hyper_L
keysym Control_R = Super_R
keysym Alt_L = Meta_L
keysym Meta_R = Alt_R
keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L

! make the thinkpad Fn key double as multi key
keycode 227 = Multi_key

add Control = Control_L
add Lock = Caps_Lock
add mod1 = Meta_L Meta_R Multi_key
add mod2 = Hyper_L Hyper_R
add mod3 = Num_Lock
add mod4 = Alt_L Alt_R
add mod5 = Super_L Super_R Scroll_Lock

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Big Bird]

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote in message news:<yy7ovg1s48i6.fsf@marge.cs.sfu.ca>...
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Martin Schmitz wrote:
> 
> > Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:
> >> If KDE doesn't allow you to change key bindings,
> > 
> > Hey, c'mon, it's Unix. Of course one can change everything in KDE.
> 
> Some changes are easier than others, though.  I don't use KDE, so for all I
> know you'd have to edit the source code to make these changes.


-> K | Preferences | Peripherals | Keyboard

It's in the "options" tab.

Where you would expect it.

Because it's NOT unix. 

It's KDE.

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> But anyway, since there is no specific name for mod5 there is no way
> to use five distinct modifiers (in addition to Shift and Ctlr) with
> Emacs, is there? 

Huh?

Emacs groks alt, hyper, meta, super.  I guess it would be possible to
add gold, if you need that.  I see no direct connection between this
and `direct' Emacs names for the modifiers.

Emacs has no name for the 42nd key, yet it is clearly possible to bind
more than 42 keys.

Maybe you could consider the fifth modifier to be the compose key?
(Keysym Multi_key I think.)

Or you could consider Num_Lock and Scroll_Lock to be modifiers.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Fredrik Staxeng]

kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
>
>> But anyway, since there is no specific name for mod5 there is no way
>> to use five distinct modifiers (in addition to Shift and Ctlr) with
>> Emacs, is there? 
>
>Huh?
>
>Emacs groks alt, hyper, meta, super.  I guess it would be possible to
>add gold, if you need that.  I see no direct connection between this
>and `direct' Emacs names for the modifiers.

The question is purely hypothetical. It occurred to me when I looked
at keysymdef.h that X has five modifiers, but only four likely names
for the keysym.

I can do:

(define-key global-map "\M-f" 'forward-word)
(define-key global-map "\A-f" 'forward-sexp)
(define-key global-map "\S-f" 'forward-defun)
(define-key global-map "\H-f" 'forward-class)

but what to with mod5?

In practice, there is no problem. 

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr