From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ian Zimmerman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: "like other editors" [ Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:45:02 -0700 Message-ID: <87d3eej7fl.fsf@foolinux.dyndns.org> References: <87litcvtu2.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20111003093334.0bf5d988@kuru.homelinux.net> <4E89B613.9060305@mousecar.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1317663976 13655 80.91.229.12 (3 Oct 2011 17:46:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:46:16 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 03 19:46:12 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RAmai-0003Hc-0i for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 19:46:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57404 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAmah-0000oH-9Q for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 13:46:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37172) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAmac-0000o0-Ht for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 13:46:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAmab-0005Pa-F5 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 13:46:06 -0400 Original-Received: from li225-69.members.linode.com ([173.255.215.69]:59538 helo=ahiker.homeip.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RAmaa-0005PE-Or for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 13:46:05 -0400 Original-Received: from adsl-75-30-79-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net ([75.30.79.187] helo=matica) by ahiker.homeip.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RAma0-0006q5-VT for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:45:29 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Richard Riley's message of "Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:00:35 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 173.255.215.69 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:82422 Archived-At: Richard> Having to change common UI motions from app to app is a Richard> pain. While I agree not all things should be embraced more Richard> recent changes like how select, mark and clipboards work make Richard> it FAR easier for the newer adopter : hard core users are more Richard> than able to customise back to the 1994 "standard" they prefer Richard> as the previous poster mentioned. With Emacs, this may be true (I sure hope it is, because I sense the proposal with go through). But in general, when a package or program decides to "embrace" we hard core users face a sad choice: retrain our fingers to the Windows way (and yes, that _is_ what it is, if you trace it to the source), or "customise back" and give up any new features, because they are usually not compatible with the old interface. It happens again and again, and I'm sick of it. Emacs has been sort of like last bastion, and if it falls I give up computing as a passion and approach it strictly for the money. Seriously. Richard> Always try to remember the hassles you had when embracing Richard> emacs. Only then can you judge more dispassionately. I do remember that time (around 1995). I came from Windows too, and the initial difficulties were totally worth it. Richard> You dont think emacs sharing certain features with much more Richard> popular editors might be a good idea and makes sense? Emacs is different because it is first and foremost a programmer's editor. It is true that it has acquired features for more general text processing but it always felt those were there so the programmers didn't have to switch to something different when they composed their emails :-) Now this proposal would make Emacs itself into something different :-( People who normally edit general text and only occassionally drop into highly structured text or code are better served by a simpler editor, IMO. -- Ian Zimmerman gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5 BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.