RTF for emacs

RTF for emacs

[James Freer]

I read some time ago that there was development taking place for providing 
emacs with word processing i.e. formatting iirc RTF.

Is this taking place or has the interest declined. Reading posts a while back 
on 'how emacs can be improved' (or similar header). I was wondering as one 
thing I'd love to see in linux would be a cli RTF editor or graphical. I found 
so many bugs in Abiword and LO-writer that I don't want to use them.

thanks
james

Re: RTF for emacs

[Rasmus]

James Freer <jessejazza3.uk@gmail.com> writes:

> I read some time ago that there was development taking place for
> providing emacs with word processing i.e. formatting iirc RTF.
>
> Is this taking place or has the interest declined. Reading posts a
> while back on 'how emacs can be improved' (or similar header). I was
> wondering as one thing I'd love to see in linux would be a cli RTF
> editor or graphical. I found so many bugs in Abiword and LO-writer
> that I don't want to use them.

I'm not aware of any RTF initiatives.  Did you try Org?  It outputs to
odt, html and LaTeX.

-- 
Don't panic!!!

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:

> I'm not aware of any RTF initiatives.  Did you try
> Org?  It outputs to odt, html and LaTeX.

Yeah. Question to the OP: Why do you want "RTF"?

For e-mails, Usenet posts, README files, everything
short and neat - plain text will do (is superior,
because it is so easy to deal with for everyone, and so
fast to do so, and so enjoyable to type...).

For the odd very-fancy-looking manual or MS degree
techno-science thesis - LaTeX obviously, which you can
enter plain in Emacs (no need for Org) and
compile.

PDFs are great for advanced documents (with special
notation etc.) and for large documents (e.g., books)
that are expected to be read by humans - documents that
are likely to be printed (and, when done, not expected
to change a lot save for an occasional additional
chapter or so, and typos fixed).

A lot of PDFs shouldn't be PDFs, though (as I see
it). A two-page essay with 4-6 paragraphs and no
illustrations or special notation - why use PDF for
this? Use plain text: faster, lighter, and much easier
for everyone else to use in whatever way they prefer.

HTML for webpages (of course): again type direct in
Emacs (again no need for Org).

If you are ever so lucky as to write a brand-new tool
for some Unix-system - groff (GNU runoff or roff) -
groff to do the man page (saliva in my mouth just
thinking of it). (Also the GNU ancient-empire "info"
tool has a markup system which I'm unfamiliar with.)

Really, what *is* the use-case for "RTF"?

But I'm sorry I can't answer your question - but the
reason I can't is I never saw the need to use it.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Robert Thorpe]

> Really, what *is* the use-case for "RTF"?

What about writing a letter to your bank?  Or writing a short technical
document that has to include diagrams?  Plain text can't really do these
things.  Latex can do these things, but it's complicated.  Whenever I
need to use Latex I have to look at lots of examples from the internet
or the last time I used it.  Since I never write large reports using
Latex it's syntax never sticks in my head.

I use a word processor for these kind of things a present, Libreoffice.  I'd
rather not do that though, it's clumsy.  If I had the time I'd help with
adding RTF editing and/or word-processing to Emacs.

Something I'm considering is using info format.  The info makeup is very
simple (for the GNU manuals it's compiled from sources in a TeX dialect
called TeXInfo, but it can be written directly).  Another possibility is using HTML.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: RTF for emacs

[Charles Philip Chan]

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Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

Hi Robert:

> What about writing a letter to your bank?  Or writing a short technical
> document that has to include diagrams?  Plain text can't really do these
> things.

Of course is can with a markup language.

> Latex can do these things, but it's complicated.  Whenever I need to
> use Latex I have to look at lots of examples from the internet or the
> last time I used it.  Since I never write large reports using Latex
> it's syntax never sticks in my head.

Org-mode[1] is your answer. It can do everything you listed with a simple
markup language.

Charles

Footnotes: 
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Org-mode
    http://orgmode.org/
    
-- 
"We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds."
(Linus Torvalds about the superiority of Linux on the Amsterdam
Linux Symposium)

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Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Charles Philip Chan <cpchan@bell.net> writes:

> Org-mode [1] is your answer. It can do everything you
> listed with a simple markup language.

I never understood the Org-mode hype but it must be
good as so many people talk about it. Is it like a
one-to-many mapping so there is one Org-mode markup and
then it gets you a website, a PDF, whatever, by
generating HTML (and CSS), LaTeX, etc., as an
in-between stage? Is that it? Or what is it? If it is,
how can you trust it?  Won't you scratch your head all
the time thinking, "can Org-mode really write as good
HTML/LaTeX/whatever as I?"

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Charles Philip Chan]

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Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

Hi Emanuel:

> I never understood the Org-mode hype but it must be good as so many
> people talk about it. Is it like a one-to-many mapping so there is one
> Org-mode markup and then it gets you a website, a PDF, whatever, by
> generating HTML (and CSS), LaTeX, etc., as an in-between stage? Is
> that it?

Yes, it is a one to many mapping. However, publishing is only a small
part of org-mode. To quote from the introduction of the org-mode manual:

,----
| Org is a mode for keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, and project
| planning with a fast and effective plain-text system. It also is an
| authoring system with unique support for literate programming and
| reproducible research.
| 
| Org is implemented on top of Outline mode, which makes it possible to
| keep the content of large files well structured. Visibility cycling and
| structure editing help to work with the tree. Tables are easily created
| with a built-in table editor. Plain text URL-like links connect to
| websites, emails, Usenet messages, BBDB entries, and any files related
| to the projects.
| 
| Org develops organizational tasks around notes files that contain lists
| or information about projects as plain text. Project planning and task
| management makes use of metadata which is part of an outline node. Based
| on this data, specific entries can be extracted in queries and create
| dynamic agenda views that also integrate the Emacs calendar and diary.
| Org can be used to implement many different project planning schemes,
| such as David Allen’s GTD system.
| 
| Org files can serve as a single source authoring system with export to
| many different formats such as HTML, L A TEX, Open Document, and
| Markdown. New export backends can be derived from existing ones, or
| defined from scratch.
| 
| Org files can include source code blocks, which makes Org uniquely
| suited for authoring technical documents with code examples. Org source
| code blocks are fully functional; they can be evaluated in place and
| their results can be captured in the file. This makes it possible to
| create a single file reproducible research compendium.
| 
| Org keeps simple things simple. When first fired up, it should feel like
| a straightforward, easy to use outliner. Complexity is not imposed, but
| a large amount of functionality is available when needed. Org is a
| toolbox. Many users usilize only a (very personal) fraction of Org’s
| capabilities, and know that there is more whenever they need it.
| 
| All of this is achieved with strictly plain text files, the most
| portable and future-proof file format. Org runs in Emacs. Emacs is one
| of the most widely ported programs, so that Org mode is available on
| every major platform.
`----

Here is a very abridged list of it's features:

     http://orgmode.org/features.html

or take a look at the manual itself:

   http://orgmode.org/org.html

The pdf version of the manual is 281 pages long!

> Or what is it? If it is, how can you trust it?  Won't you scratch your
> head all the time thinking, "can Org-mode really write as good
> HTML/LaTeX/whatever as I?"

Well try it out for yourself and see. There is very fine gain control of
publishing. For example, for LaTeX and pdf:

    http://orgmode.org/org.html#LaTeX-and-PDF-export

and for html:

    http://orgmode.org/org.html#HTML-export

etc.

Regards,
Charles

-- 
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb.  Thank you."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)

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Re: RTF for emacs

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com>
() Sat, 24 May 2014 01:21:19 +0100

   Or writing a short technical
   document that has to include diagrams?

What kind of diagrams?  Does RTF handle diagrams at all?
Unabashed plug: <http://www.gnuvola.org/software/aa2u/>.

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
   GPG key: 4C807502
   (if you're human and you know it)
      read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
                               (not (via 'mailing-list)))
                     => nil

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Re: RTF for emacs

[Rusi]

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 11:03:45 AM UTC+5:30, Thien-Thi Nguyen wrote:
> () Robert Thorpe
> () Sat, 24 May 2014 01:21:19 +0100
> 
>    Or writing a short technical
>    document that has to include diagrams?
> 
> What kind of diagrams?  Does RTF handle diagrams at all?
> Unabashed plug: <http://www.gnuvola.org/software/aa2u/>.

Looks useful
However not quite working
This

+-------+
|	|
|	|
|	|
|	|
|	|
|	|
|	|
|	|
+-------+

produces

┌───────╴
│	│
│	│
│	│
│	│
│	│
│	│
│	│
│	│
└───────╴

[aa2u version 1.8]

Re: RTF for emacs

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() Rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com>
() Sat, 24 May 2014 00:54:40 -0700 (PDT)

   This

   +-------+
   |	|
   |	|
   |	|
   |	|
   |	|
   |	|
   |	|
   |	|
   +-------+

   produces

   ┌───────╴
   │	│
   │	│
   │	│
   │	│
   │	│
   │	│
   │	│
   │	│
   └───────╴

Thanks for trying out ascii-art-to-unicode.el and reporting this.

Yeah, aa2u is confused by the tab character (U+09).
If you ‘M-x untabify’ first, it should do better.
In the meantime, i've added a blurb to HACKING:

 http://git.sv.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/tree/packages/ascii-art-to-unicode/HACKING

Now, what would be TRT to do?

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
   GPG key: 4C807502
   (if you're human and you know it)
      read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
                               (not (via 'mailing-list)))
                     => nil

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artist-mode/aa2u (was: Re: RTF for emacs)

[Emanuel Berg]

Holy smoke! I was able to do this is zero-time -
compare that to getting intuitive with ImageMagick or
Dia XML! Only problems I had - aa2u translated the dash
in "best-effort" as well (perhaps unavoidable, but very
minor so) - also, in artist-mode, can you grab a side
of a rectangle and move it left-right (or up down)?
Also, when typing, that typically screws up the figure,
so can you make it insert text while simultaneously
eating whitespace at the other end?  Amazing stuff!

PS. It will be interesting how this mails turns out. DS

┌─────────────────┐                            ┌────────────────────┐
│ critical core:  │                            │ best-effort core:  │
│ hierarchical    │                            │ media player       │
│ scheduler       │                            │                    │
│                 │                            │                    │
├─────────────────┤     shared memory bus      ├────────────────────┤
│ cache (LLC)     ├─────────────┬──────────────┤ cache (LLC)        │
└─────────────────┘             │              └────────────────────┘
                            ┌───┴────┐
                            │ shared │
                            │ DRAM   │
                            └────────┘

--
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: artist-mode/aa2u

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>
() Sat, 24 May 2014 20:45:36 +0200

   Only problems I had - aa2u translated the dash
   in "best-effort" as well (perhaps unavoidable, but very
   minor so)

You can "mask" that text w/ ‘aa2u-mark-as-text’.
   
BTW, if anyone has any particularly fetching examples of
ascii-art-to-unicode.el at work (or play) that they'd like
to contribute to its tip jar page, please post it to this
mailing list w/ "aa2u zow" in the subject line.  You can
post either only the ASCII, in which case i'll prepare a
"before and after" file (and screenshot), or a file that
does the "before and after" demo including instructions
on how to get from "before" to "after".

I will credit contributors on the tip jar page, of course.

   Also, when typing, that typically screws up the figure,
   so can you make it insert text while simultaneously
   eating whitespace at the other end?

This is what the venerable ‘overwrite-mode’ does.

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
   GPG key: 4C807502
   (if you're human and you know it)
      read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
                               (not (via 'mailing-list)))
                     => nil

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Re: artist-mode/aa2u

[Emanuel Berg]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes:

> You can "mask" that text w/ ‘aa2u-mark-as-text’.

Aha, cool!

> BTW, if anyone has any particularly fetching examples
> of ascii-art-to-unicode.el at work (or play) that
> they'd like to contribute to its tip jar page, please
> post it to this mailing list w/ "aa2u zow" in the
> subject line.  You can post either only the ASCII, in
> which case i'll prepare a "before and after" file
> (and screenshot), or a file that does the "before and
> after" demo including instructions on how to get from
> "before" to "after".
>
> I will credit contributors on the tip jar page, of
> course.

Perhaps *I* should credit *you* in my paper! But then I
suppose I would have to credit Bjarne Stroustrup for
C++, Donald Knuth for TeX, Leslie Lamport for LaTeX,
down to Gutenberg for the printing press... It would be
a massacre.

No, of course I can send the stuff to you when its
done. But you might even more interested in this [1],
namely, how it looks and works in an
xelatex-compiled PDF (instead of pdflatex; xelatex is
in the Debian texlive-xetex package).

Cred to the people at comp.text.tex for helping me with
that.

>> Also, when typing, that typically screws up the
>> figure, so can you make it insert text while
>> simultaneously eating whitespace at the other end?
>
> This is what the venerable ‘overwrite-mode’ does.

OK, silly me. Of course. (That, or something to that
extent, is applied by default in the artist-mode, by
the way.)

[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/hs/docs/report/xformal/

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: artist-mode/aa2u

[Rusi]

On Sunday, May 25, 2014 12:21:02 PM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Rusi writes:
> 
> 
> > So currently I am torn between: On the one hand
> > xelatex does not work, classic latex works On the
> > other this is freakin 2014 do we still stay in 1980
> > and write \alpha \beta \gamma \delta ... \omega and
> > \sum and \forall when we can directly write α β γ δ …
> > ω ∑ ∀ ??
> 
> 
> I think \alpha is better. I can't see those other chars
> for starters and I'd like to be sure everyone see what
> I write.

Yes… not seeing *is* a problem. We are in times of transition...

> Also, how did you insert them? ("\alpha" takes zero time to type.)

Inserting α is identical to inserting \alpha – just use tex input method
in emacs

Of course in the long run even this is way too much.

I need one keystroke to type an 'a' 1½ (that is 1-and-a-half if you cant see it)
to type a 'A' — a shift+A chord.  I would expect all standard heavily used
keys to be upto 3-4 keystrokes away. eg the half above is 3 keys:
Compose+1+2. [Ive set compose to the Windows-menu key]

So I can get
αβψδεφγηιξκλμνοπ;ρστθωςχυζ
by typing
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 

if Ive setup my keyboard to switch between greek and us, thus

$ setxkbmap -option "grp:switch,grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll" -layout "us,gr"

Since I am not primarily interested in greek, I of course dont do this

Re: artist-mode/aa2u

[Emanuel Berg]

Rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> Inserting α is identical to inserting \alpha – just
> use tex input method in emacs

Do you type \alpha and it (well) "expands" to the Greek
letter? Like an abbrev? If so, I don't like that, I
like what I type is what I get.

> Of course in the long run even this is way too much.
>
> I need one keystroke to type an 'a' 1½ (that is
> 1-and-a-half if you cant see it) to type a 'A' — a
> shift+A chord. I would expect all standard heavily
> used keys to be upto 3-4 keystrokes away. eg the half
> above is 3 keys: Compose+1+2. [Ive set compose to the
> Windows-menu key]

I still think it is much better just to type
\alpha. Faster and more solid. Five years from now, you
still remember it.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes:

> What kind of diagrams?  Does RTF handle diagrams at
> all?  Unabashed plug:
> <http://www.gnuvola.org/software/aa2u/>.

Ha-ha, "foreground" :)

But that's actually a great idea (not just aa2u, but
artist-mode as well). I have been looking for a way to
do simple diagrams (trees, FSMs and so on) with the
keyboard only (i.e., generate from definitions) - I
have tried with ImageMagick and even Dia, as it uses
XML, so why not edit that first hand?

Answer: Problem with both approaches is that it
required too much back-and-forth
edit-and-check-and-fix-and-check-etc. so it just wasn't
pleasant or efficient (perhaps if you had a dual
monitor/projector and on-the-fly-update it would be).

This seems very interesting!

When I got a cool diagram, how do you propose I embed
it with the LaTeX PDF? I know there is way to include
plain text "as is" - perhaps that's even better than to
first export it as a picture, and then include the
picture? It is certainly more appealing - faster and
smaller.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Grant Rettke]

Emanuel try http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/.

Grant Rettke | AAAS, ACM, ASA, FSF, IEEE, SIAM, Sigma Xi
gcr@wisdomandwonder.com | http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/
“Wisdom begins in wonder.” --Socrates
((λ (x) (x x)) (λ (x) (x x)))
“Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop
taking it seriously.” --Thompson


On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>wrote:

> Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes:
>
> > What kind of diagrams?  Does RTF handle diagrams at
> > all?  Unabashed plug:
> > <http://www.gnuvola.org/software/aa2u/>.
>
> Ha-ha, "foreground" :)
>
> But that's actually a great idea (not just aa2u, but
> artist-mode as well). I have been looking for a way to
> do simple diagrams (trees, FSMs and so on) with the
> keyboard only (i.e., generate from definitions) - I
> have tried with ImageMagick and even Dia, as it uses
> XML, so why not edit that first hand?
>
> Answer: Problem with both approaches is that it
> required too much back-and-forth
> edit-and-check-and-fix-and-check-etc. so it just wasn't
> pleasant or efficient (perhaps if you had a dual
> monitor/projector and on-the-fly-update it would be).
>
> This seems very interesting!
>
> When I got a cool diagram, how do you propose I embed
> it with the LaTeX PDF? I know there is way to include
> plain text "as is" - perhaps that's even better than to
> first export it as a picture, and then include the
> picture? It is certainly more appealing - faster and
> smaller.
>
> --
> underground experts united:
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
>

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Grant Rettke <gcr@wisdomandwonder.com> writes:

> Emanuel try http://ditaa.sourceforge.net

Thanks, but I haven't given up just yet of including
the Unicode right into the PDF - just imagine how cool,
with no image files whatsoever to burden you!

So just now, I sent the following to comp.text.tex -
let's see if they can solve it!

(post begins here)

I just learned about Emacs' artist-mode on
gnu.emacs.help, which I used to draw two
diagrams. Then, I used a clever tool called
aa2u (ASCII Art To Unicode) [1] to make solid lines
out of the dashes and all that.

Examples: with [2] and without [3] Unicode.

Now, in the LaTeX source [4] I put this:

\usepackage{alltt}
%% ...
\begin{alltt}
  \input{tree.txt}
  \clearpage
  \input{multicore.txt}
\end{alltt}

And the result looks like this [5] (at page 2, right
after the TOC).

Question is, is there a similar way to include not the
ASCII, but the UTF-8 versions of the diagrams? I tried
the same way, only it got stuck on pdflatex on the very
Unicode.

I know I can make pictures of them but I like the idea
of just having those as text, and just inserting them
(faster update, and no in-between file - minimal
overhead).

[1] http://www.gnuvola.org/software/aa2u/
[2] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/hs/docs/report/multicore.txt
[3] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/hs/docs/report/multicore_u.txt
[4] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/hs/docs/report/formal.tex
[5] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/hs/docs/report/formal.pdf

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Rusi]

On Sunday, May 25, 2014 7:52:03 AM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Question is, is there a similar way to include not the
> 
> ASCII, but the UTF-8 versions of the diagrams? I tried
> the same way, only it got stuck on pdflatex on the very
> Unicode.

xetex (xelatex) and luatex are intended to solve this.
I need to say however...
After 3 days of struggling including some 1 G of downloads and setup fiddling
I hear that it may not be (quite) working.

So currently I am torn between:
On the one hand xelatex does not work, classic latex works
On the other this is freakin 2014 do we still stay in 1980 and write
\alpha \beta \gamma \delta ... \omega and \sum and \forall 
when we can directly write α β γ δ … ω ∑ ∀ ??

Note Haskell can already do ≠ instead of /= Likewise ∧ ∨ instead of
ugly and obsolete && ||

More examples:
http://blog.languager.org/2014/05/unicode-in-haskell-source.html

And a more tongue-in-cheek poke at unix assumptions about ASCII
http://blog.languager.org/2014/04/unicode-and-unix-assumption.html

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> So currently I am torn between: On the one hand
> xelatex does not work, classic latex works On the
> other this is freakin 2014 do we still stay in 1980
> and write \alpha \beta \gamma \delta ... \omega and
> \sum and \forall when we can directly write α β γ δ …
> ω ∑ ∀ ??

I think \alpha is better. I can't see those other chars
for starters and I'd like to be sure everyone see what
I write. Also, how did you insert them? ("\alpha" takes
zero time to type.)

Only with complicated formulas it might make sense to
have the Greek alphabet as it is - I can't say for the
mathematicians or the HPC professionals or whatever...

> Note Haskell can already do ≠ instead of /= Likewise
> ∧ ∨ instead of ugly and obsolete && ||

No way, ugly and obsolete! There will always be more
excellent C (with !='s) around than ever purist and
neurotic Haskell. But to each his own. (By the way,
some of those chars I cannot see as well.)

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Yuri Khan]

On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:22 AM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> I have been looking for a way to
> do simple diagrams (trees, FSMs and so on) with the
> keyboard only (i.e., generate from definitions) - I
> have tried with ImageMagick and even Dia, as it uses
> XML, so why not edit that first hand?

I do my diagrams in a self-invented semi-human-readable markup
language[1], which is then post-processed using Python scripts into
Graphviz[2] graph description language, which is then further rendered
into any image format you like (notably PNG, SVG, PDF and EPS). My
format of choice happens to be SVG, which I can conveniently view in
my web browser, print out without any loss of quality, and/or embed in
an HTML page.

[1] http://yurivkhan.github.io/textuml/ but see also
http://sf.net/plantuml/ for a Java-based alternative
[2] http://www.graphviz.org/

One could write Graphviz directly but it is too low-level and verbose.
I view it as a graph assembly language and build higher-level tools on
top of it.

> Answer: Problem with both approaches is that it
> required too much back-and-forth
> edit-and-check-and-fix-and-check-etc. so it just wasn't
> pleasant or efficient (perhaps if you had a dual
> monitor/projector and on-the-fly-update it would be).

Yes, it involves this feedback loop, and it’s mildly frustrating. And
yes, dual monitors help very much.

> When I got a cool diagram, how do you propose I embed
> it with the LaTeX PDF?

In my opinion, nohow. PDFs are for getting your article printed, and
that’s becoming more and more irrelevant. Better publish online in
HTML with illustrations in SVG. (But if you must, Graphviz can also
generate Encapsulated PostScript which LaTeX will happily include in
the PDF.)

Re: RTF for emacs

[Grant Rettke]

Yuri you reinvented org-mode.

Grant Rettke | AAAS, ACM, ASA, FSF, IEEE, SIAM, Sigma Xi
gcr@wisdomandwonder.com | http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/
“Wisdom begins in wonder.” --Socrates
((λ (x) (x x)) (λ (x) (x x)))
“Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop
taking it seriously.” --Thompson


On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:22 AM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>
> wrote:
>
> > I have been looking for a way to
> > do simple diagrams (trees, FSMs and so on) with the
> > keyboard only (i.e., generate from definitions) - I
> > have tried with ImageMagick and even Dia, as it uses
> > XML, so why not edit that first hand?
>
> I do my diagrams in a self-invented semi-human-readable markup
> language[1], which is then post-processed using Python scripts into
> Graphviz[2] graph description language, which is then further rendered
> into any image format you like (notably PNG, SVG, PDF and EPS). My
> format of choice happens to be SVG, which I can conveniently view in
> my web browser, print out without any loss of quality, and/or embed in
> an HTML page.
>
> [1] http://yurivkhan.github.io/textuml/ but see also
> http://sf.net/plantuml/ for a Java-based alternative
> [2] http://www.graphviz.org/
>
> One could write Graphviz directly but it is too low-level and verbose.
> I view it as a graph assembly language and build higher-level tools on
> top of it.
>
> > Answer: Problem with both approaches is that it
> > required too much back-and-forth
> > edit-and-check-and-fix-and-check-etc. so it just wasn't
> > pleasant or efficient (perhaps if you had a dual
> > monitor/projector and on-the-fly-update it would be).
>
> Yes, it involves this feedback loop, and it’s mildly frustrating. And
> yes, dual monitors help very much.
>
> > When I got a cool diagram, how do you propose I embed
> > it with the LaTeX PDF?
>
> In my opinion, nohow. PDFs are for getting your article printed, and
> that’s becoming more and more irrelevant. Better publish online in
> HTML with illustrations in SVG. (But if you must, Graphviz can also
> generate Encapsulated PostScript which LaTeX will happily include in
> the PDF.)
>
>

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:

> In my opinion, nohow. PDFs are for getting your
> article printed, and that’s becoming more and more
> irrelevant.

I don't think so. Just think about the computer-book
industry! A lot of thick manuals are lovely to print
(and heft) and then have by the computer to look up
things. Books (physical) are much more relaxing to
read, and involves less eye-strain, and they work on a
different mental plane - when at the keyboard, you (or
I perhaps I should say) want to be the fighter pilot,
active, overconfident, focusing on the problem, trying
new things, attacking from different angles. With the
book (perhaps on a train station) you are the
helicopter pilot, modest and low-key, trying to grasp
the whole scope of things - like 600 pages of C
programming - you sure didn't think of that when you
perfected a couple of nested for loops to nail an
algorithm... Also, reading more general books (perhaps
the autobiography of Wozniak, which I today learned is
available as an audio book) - that stuff is great for
culture, and very enjoyable.

> Better publish online in HTML ...

Well, LaTeX is much more expressive (beyond any
comparison, really) and it looks the same everywhere.

Other than that, interesting post. Get back to you on
that home-crafted tool of yours.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Yuri Khan]

On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

>> Better publish online in HTML ...
>
> Well, LaTeX is much more expressive (beyond any
> comparison, really) and it looks the same everywhere.

Expressive, yes, but that should be fixed by developing and
standardizing XML schemas for everything that is not well expressible
in HTML/MathML/SVG.

Looks the same, yes, and that’s a bad thing. The shape of content
should adapt to the reader [both human who does the reading, and
device which is used], not the other way round. On paper, I am ok with
10pt Times and can handle two columns on an A4 page or two A5 pages
side-by-side. On a desktop screen [at least until 4K displays become
widely available and reasonably priced], I want a highly legible 12pt
sans-serif, hinted for subpixel rendering, in a single column of
adjustable width, and no subdivision into fixed-size pages. And don’t
even start with me about tablets and smartphones. (And no, it’s not
reasonable to expect that readers be able or willing to re-render your
LaTeX article for their device capabilities and personal preferences.)

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:

> Expressive, yes, but that should be fixed by
> developing and standardizing XML schemas for
> everything that is not well expressible in
> HTML/MathML/SVG.

HTML and the Internet is one chaotic hack. LaTeX is a
virtually bug-free, domain-specific programming
language to produce documents.

But it is not even HTML vs. LaTeX (or web vs. PDFs) as
those serve two totally different purposes. (Or should,
at least.)

> Looks the same, yes, and that’s a bad thing. The
> shape of content should adapt to the reader [both
> human who does the reading, and device which is
> used], not the other way round. On paper, I am ok
> with 10pt Times and can handle two columns on an A4
> page or two A5 pages side-by-side. On a desktop
> screen [at least until 4K displays become widely
> available and reasonably priced], I want a highly
> legible 12pt sans-serif, hinted for subpixel
> rendering, in a single column of adjustable width,
> and no subdivision into fixed-size pages. And don’t
> even start with me about tablets and
> smartphones. (And no, it’s not reasonable to expect
> that readers be able or willing to re-render your
> LaTeX article for their device capabilities and
> personal preferences.)

Yes, this is what I'm saying all along! I don't think
you should read PDFs on the monitor/projector, and
certainly not on "smart"phones - grep the web, you
should get web pages (in HTML), print the 600-page
manual or Ph.D. thesis with techno-science notation -
LaTeX and PDFs.

What you can do with HTML cannot at all compare to what
you can do with LaTeX, and if you could (which you
can't) it would be extremely uncertain if it would work
for half browsers - and some people actually need all
that stuff. (And I don't even like browsers, anyway.)

But I'm the first to say PDFs are used too much and for
information that do not benefit from it at all, and
then it is much better with ASCII or HTML.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[Glyn Millington]

Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

>> Really, what *is* the use-case for "RTF"?
>
> What about writing a letter to your bank?  Or writing a short technical
> document that has to include diagrams?  Plain text can't really do these
> things.  Latex can do these things, but it's complicated.  Whenever I
> need to use Latex I have to look at lots of examples from the internet
> or the last time I used it.  Since I never write large reports using
> Latex it's syntax never sticks in my head.
>
> I use a word processor for these kind of things a present, Libreoffice.  I'd
> rather not do that though, it's clumsy.  If I had the time I'd help with
> adding RTF editing and/or word-processing to Emacs.

Hi Robert,

If you are capable of helping to add RTF editing to emacs then you are
surely capable of handling LaTeX :-)  However I'm not clear from your
post how deeply you are into the Emacs world. Do you, for example, know
about Auctex, the LaTeX-writing mode for Emacs? 

My own experience is that learning Emacs and LaTeX is a life-work in
itself, on top of  the need to actually make a living, raise kids etc
etc!  T.E.A., the Tweaking Emacs Addiction, has been the ruin of many.

The answer is to create templates, especially for LaTeX - then just
insert as needed.

1. Letters

There is a good tutorial for producing a letter here:
 
http://www.kindoblue.nl/articles/cover-letter-part1/


Look here for lot of templates

http://www.latextemplates.com/



2. Tech reports with diagrams.

LaTeX can produce amazing diagrams but it is, as you said, complicated. I
tend to produce graphics/diagrams elsewhere and then import 'em.  There
are some good tutorials here

http://www-h.eng.cam.ac.uk/help/tpl/textprocessing/



3. Org mode

Is fantastic and I use it all day and every day. My view would be that if
you want to use it for exporting  LaTeX, you need to have some
understanding of how LaTeX works in order to produce the org templates
you need.


> Something I'm considering is using info format. The info makeup is very
> simple (for the GNU manuals it's compiled from sources in a TeX dialect
> called TeXInfo, but it can be written directly). Another possibility is
> using HTML.

Seems like re-inventing the wheel!   The time might be better invested in
getting a grip on LaTeX.  The template thing has been the key for me.



Good luck!




Glyn

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

Glyn Millington <glyn.millington@gmail.com> writes:

> If you are capable of helping to add RTF editing to
> emacs then you are surely capable of handling LaTeX

Definitely! And it is a better project which also
involves a community. If you can't stand
Star/Libre/Open Office and the like word processors,
why try making Emacs into one?

> However I'm not clear from your post how deeply you
> are into the Emacs world. Do you, for example, know
> about Auctex, the LaTeX-writing mode for Emacs?

And latex-mode.

> My own experience is that learning Emacs and LaTeX is
> a life-work in itself, on top of the need to actually
> make a living, raise kids etc etc!  T.E.A., the
> Tweaking Emacs Addiction, has been the ruin of many.

Yes! On the other hand it is pleasant, relaxing, you
learn stuff, and all the improvements you make, you
immediately can use and benefit from (even derive
pleasure and pride). Compare this to all the morons
who who spend years on the grandiose MMORPG or
would-be-Quake-killer, projects that will never
complete and from whose activity it is very difficult
to flow anything sensible (and generalizable) to the
outside world.

Emacs hacking is an OCB trap but it is possible to get
out on the other side and have a system you really,
really enjoy (and have mastered, not the least through
the tweak process itself) - but sure, if you don't get
out and is stuck starving in the buffer in-between,
then it sucks.

> The answer is to create templates, especially for
> LaTeX - then just insert as needed ...  Seems like
> re-inventing the wheel!  The time might be better
> invested in getting a grip on LaTeX.

Absolutely right! Why don't you write here more often,
Mr. Millington? :)

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: RTF for emacs

[James Freer]

On 24/05/2014, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
> Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:
>
>> I'm not aware of any RTF initiatives.  Did you try
>> Org?  It outputs to odt, html and LaTeX.
>
> Yeah. Question to the OP: Why do you want "RTF"?

I didn't mean RTF especially but rich text able to do basic word
processing including page numbering suitable for basic docs but
without going OTT like LO-writer.

Thank you for suggesting org, html, enriched text but it's not the
same. These days I tend to use google docs for speed, draft in emacs
as text and then import into google docs... that's a pain. I just
vaguely recall something once being mentioned for emacs... does
everything else after all.

james

Re: RTF for emacs

[Emanuel Berg]

James Freer <jessejazza3.uk@gmail.com> writes:

> I didn't mean RTF especially but rich text able to do
> basic word processing including page numbering
> suitable for basic docs but without going OTT like
> LO-writer.

I don't know exactly what RTF is is but I take it is
the word processor stuff: fonts, boldface, headers,
etc.

Again, I don't see why not just using a word processor
for people who want that - isn't that what they are
for?

I prefer just typing text, and with markups for the
rare cases it is needed, ..., it is the cooler, faster,
and more powerful approach with few limitations (what I
can see) and all the benefits. It is more pleasant,
which should never be underestimated. The more
relaxation and familiarity with the tools, the bigger
part of the brain can be allocated the qualitative part
of the problem...

Of course, LaTeX does (can do) page numbering
automatically and there are lots of options to it.

> Thank you for suggesting org, html, enriched text but
> it's not the same.

Well, I didn't suggest that (perhaps someone else did)
- I suggest HTML (and CSS) for *webpages* (but created
as markuped text), and LaTeX (likewise) for ambitious,
lengthy documents that are expected not to change much,
and be printed (read by humans), that require
specialized notation (beyond ASCII). And: plain text
for everything else.

> These days I tend to use google docs for speed, draft
> in emacs as text and then import into google
> docs... that's a pain.

Yes... it sucks. The web, man. Back to the days when
programs roamed the world...

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573