From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim X Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: What's your favourite *under_publicized* editing feature ofEmacs? Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:07:09 +1100 Organization: Unlimited download news at news.astraweb.com Message-ID: <87aahnp6ua.fsf@rapttech.com.au> References: <1578157c-17a0-41ea-9420-9330f68b10fe@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com> <02a0d2ef-0b00-4038-b559-690516b4ed0a@a21g2000prj.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1298448135 31616 80.91.229.12 (23 Feb 2011 08:02:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:02:15 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 23 09:02:11 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ps9fk-0006JE-PO for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:02:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34483 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ps9fk-0002oU-3O for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 03:02:08 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!border3.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:orHctsL8feE60cuJwxvbOq+sFKM= Original-Lines: 105 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 28da1f51.news.astraweb.com Original-X-Trace: DXC=8WDDZ List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:79378 Archived-At: Cthun writes: > On 22/02/2011 9:33 PM, Rafe Kettler wrote: >> On Feb 22, 9:06 pm, Cthun wrote: >>> On 22/02/2011 2:47 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>> >>>> There seems to be a contradiction between those last two paragraphs. >>>> Saving buffers and finding files are relatively rare operations which >>>> thus shouldn't be given very easy to press key sequences like C-s and >>>> C-o. >>> >>> Where do you live where software never crashes and the electricity never >>> goes out? Most of us learn to save very frequently to limit how much >>> we'll have to do over again if the power goes out or whatever. >> >> Emacs is really, really stable. My computer hasn't crashed in the past >> 6 months, either. The power hasn't gone out in 3 months or so here >> (eastern US). >> >> Save and open are relatively infrequent command relative to others >> (actual typing, cursor movement, etc.). > > Yeah, but for "actual typing" you only need the normal alphanumeric/symbol keys > (no ctrl- or alt- combos) and for cursor movement, the arrow/home/end/etc. key > group to the right of the main keyboard area. You've got loads and loads of > ctrl-letter and ctrl-number combinations still after exhausting all of these > more-frequent actions. > Unless you are a power keyboard user, in which case, lifting your hands from the keyboard to the arrow keys et. al. or to use the mouse to access menus, is annoying and slows you down. Having C-n/C-p/C-a/C-e/C-o/C-j etc plus many other frequently used editing commands on single depth bindings is far more useful and used more frequently than save file or find file. When you consider all of these bindings, there are not many free single depth key bindings available at all. You can increase the number by using the 'extra' super and hyper modifiers, but as not all keyboards have easy access to these modifiers, they are not good defaults. > And then not everyone lives somewhere where the power is that reliable. > Then a UPS would be the right solution, especially as you can pick up small UPS units for very little cost that give you enough time to save and shutdown, plus the added benefit of most UPS units is 'conditioning' of your power supply and providing some protection from surges and brown-outs etc. > And then not everyone is daft enough not to fork their file before doing > something truly drastic to it, especially large elisions. Well, if their not using a version control system, especially when they are so readily available and cost so little, they probably get what they deserve. Of course, if they are using a good editor, it will automatically create a backup file for them. We should not restrict or constrain things to cater for a few who use bad workflows at the cost of benefits for the majority who do the right thing. > And then, of course, there's the tendency of operating systems to blue-screen, > laptops to overheat and hang, etc. no matter how stable the editor application > is. I guess that depends on your OS. I rarely see such problems - the last time was due to a hard disk failure and these days with RAID, even this is rare. If you are forced to use such unreliable setups, then you need better solutions than just hitting save every few minutes. Of course, even if you have an unreliable OS, at least with emacs you know your files are auto-saved regularly and you can configure things to automatically create backups. There is little justification for wasting valuable single depth key bindings for saving and opening files. I also suspect that those who use unreliable systems with unreliable power supplies and adopt poor practices are also likely the type of person who doesn't bother learning key stroke short-cuts and uses the menu to save/open files. Using scarce single depth bindings would be wasted on them. It should also be noted that the selection of key bindings in emacs is not as arbitrary as it may seem. There is a pattern and the single depth bindings have been worked out over many years based on user experience. While many people may find them alien because of what they have used before, their efficiency is very good. Yes, we here reports of people who have developed RSI using emacs, but I know many (including myself) who have used it for many years who have never suffered any ill effects (I've used it pretty much daily for over 18 years). I often wonder if those who are affected would have found any system which used as many key bindings, regardless of what style, would have suffered the ill effects anyway i.e. they have a predisposition for getting rsi. At the end of the day, emacs, like any other bit of software is good for some and not for others. If enough find it good, it will stand the test of time, otherwise it will fade away and be forgotten. At the end of the day, it isn't that important. The good news of course is that nobody is forced to use emacs and for those who do want to use it and don't like the bindings or want to bind save-file to a single depth binding, then they can free up the binding they want and use it. This is the real power of emacs - its not how it comes 'out of the box' but the extent you can make it what you want and not be forced to adopt an arbitrary workflow imposed by someone else. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au