bbdbv3 with rmail

bbdbv3 with rmail

[Xavier Maillard]

Hello,

I am looking for a way to manage my contacts (basically, it consists
of email addresses, a few phone numbers and eventually some notes)
efficently. Eventually, it would integrate (very) well with rmail
(alias expansion, adding timestamps as a note, etc.)

BBDB seems a good candidate but dunno if v3 is ok (there is really
poor litterature with it)


Thank you for your help
-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Colin Baxter]

Dear Xavier,
>>>>> Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:

    > Hello, I am looking for a way to manage my contacts (basically, it
    > consists of email addresses, a few phone numbers and eventually
    > some notes) efficently. Eventually, it would integrate (very) well
    > with rmail (alias expansion, adding timestamps as a note, etc.)

    > BBDB seems a good candidate but dunno if v3 is ok (there is really
    > poor litterature with it)


    > Thank you for your help -- Xavier Maillard e/j:xavier@maillard.im
    > w:www.maillard.im m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old) m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

    > GPG: 9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

I use bbdb v3.2 with RMAIL and with gnus. I find it's excellent. I have
bbdb settings in both my ~/.emacs and ~/.gnus.el, which I've given
below. They work for me, but, of course, use at your own risk.

;;; My ~/.emacs settings ;;;;;;;;

(require 'bbdb-loaddefs "~/path/to/bbdb/lisp/bbdb-loaddefs.el")

;;; Set bbdb file
(setq bbdb-file "~/path/to/bbdb") ;; en clair; Not encrypted. chmod 700.

;;; Initailise for message-mode (gnus outgoing) and mail-mode (rmail outgoing).
(bbdb-initialize 'gnus 'message 'pgp 'mail) ;; Add 'rmail if you wish.

;;; Auto saving of email addresses - Two methods.
;;
;;; METHOD 1 - I use this.
;;; Prompt for message-mode (gnus outgoing), mail-mode (rmail outgoing). 
;;; No prompt for rmail-mode (incoming), gnus (incoming).
(bbdb-mua-auto-update-init 'message ;; message-mode is gnus outgoing
;;                         'rmail   ;; No rmail-mode (incoming)
                           'mail)   ;; mail-mode is "rmail" outgoing.
(setq bbdb-mua-update-interactive-p '(query . create)
      bbdb-message-all-addresses t ;; To: is 2nd line mail-mode. Default: nil.
      bbdb-update-records-p 'query
      bbdb-mua-auto-update-p 'query)
(add-hook 'bbdb-notice-mail-hook 'bbdb-auto-notes)
;;; BBDB Pop window. Toggle 't' or 'T' in bbdb buffer to expand lines. 
(setq bbdb-mua-pop-up-window-size 3
      bbdb-layout 'one-line ;; one-line, multi-line, full-multi-line (t or T)
      bbdb-pop-up-window-size 5
      bbdb-complete-mail-allow-cycling t)
;;;
;;; Method 2 - I don't use this, but it does work.
;; Pop window. Toggle 't' or 'T' in bbdb buffer to expand lines. 
;(setq bbdb-mua-pop-up-window-size 3
;      bbdb-layout 'one-line ;; one-line, multi-line, full-multi-line (t or T)
;      bbdb-pop-up-window-size 5
;      bbdb-complete-mail-allow-cycling nil) ;; Default
;;; <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11991940/auto-create-entries-for-all-email-addresses-in-bbdb3>
;(bbdb-mua-auto-update-init 'message 'rmail) ;; rmail & message only.
;(setq bbdb-message-all-addresses nil) ;; t, nil - only 1st if nil (default). 
;;;(setq bbdb-update-records-p 'create) ;; Create without query.
;(setq bbdb-update-records-p 'query) ;; Query then create on yes.
;;;

;;; Automatically save bbdb file after a change.
(add-hook 'bbdb-after-change-hook 'bbdb-save) ;; I use this.
;;; bbdb-after-change-hook runs with one argument, the record that was
;;; changed.  The first arg of bbdb-save is the optional arg PROMPT.  So
;;; this arg is always non-nil when called by the hook (thus prompting
;;; before saving). Otherwise use
;(add-hook 'bbdb-after-change-hook (lambda (arg) (bbdb-save))) ;; ANNOYING!
;;; for saving without prompting (but not if gpg password is required).

;;; bbdb telephone setting defaults to US style
;(setq bbdb-north-american-phone-numbers-p nil) ;; nil to format non-US style.
;; Above line no longer seems to work. Use next line:
(setq bbdb-phone-style 'nil) ;; Free-style numbering. Default 'nanp 
;;; nanp = "North American Numbering Plan".

;;; My ~/.gnus.el settings ;;;;;;;

(add-hook 'gnus-startup-hook 'bbdb-insinuate-gnus)
(add-hook 'gnus-startup-hook 'bbdb-insinuate-message)

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Colin Baxter
m43cap@yandex.com
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Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric S Fraga]

On Thursday,  6 Dec 2018 at 08:16, Colin Baxter wrote:
> I use bbdb v3.2 with RMAIL and with gnus. I find it's excellent. I have
> bbdb settings in both my ~/.emacs and ~/.gnus.el, which I've given
> below. They work for me, but, of course, use at your own risk.

Thanks for posting your config.  Very useful.  I have one question,
however, which maybe you can help with: I would like bbdb to
automatically create new entries (with query, I guess) for outgoing
emails but only search for incoming.  Is this possible?

Thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.14 on Debian buster/sid

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Colin Baxter]

Dear Eric,
>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

    > On Thursday,  6 Dec 2018 at 08:16, Colin Baxter wrote:
    >> I use bbdb v3.2 with RMAIL and with gnus. I find it's
    >> excellent. I have bbdb settings in both my ~/.emacs and
    >> ~/.gnus.el, which I've given below. They work for me, but, of
    >> course, use at your own risk.

    > Thanks for posting your config.  Very useful.  I have one
    > question, however, which maybe you can help with: I would like
    > bbdb to automatically create new entries (with query, I guess) for
    > outgoing emails but only search for incoming.  Is this possible?

I'm not sure if it is possible. I don't know how, that's for
sure. However, I am uncertain what it means to search incoming addresses
without a create/query since what be the point of the search in the
first place? I may have misunderstood your question, of course. Sorry if
that is the case.

Best wishes.

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric S Fraga]

On Friday,  7 Dec 2018 at 06:41, Colin Baxter wrote:
> I'm not sure if it is possible. I don't know how, that's for
> sure. 

Okay, thanks.  I don't think it's possible either.

> However, I am uncertain what it means to search incoming addresses
> without a create/query since what be the point of the search in the
> first place? I may have misunderstood your question, of course. Sorry
> if that is the case.

'search checks the existing entries for those that match and shows them
and, optionally, allows you to update them if something has changed
(name, email).  I.e. it only shows entries but queries if something is
different than expected.  Quite useful.  It's sort of halfway to 'query
without interrupting the workflow for email.

Thanks again,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.14 on Debian buster/sid

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Colin Baxter]

Dear Eric.
>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

    > On Friday,  7 Dec 2018 at 06:41, Colin Baxter wrote:
    >> I'm not sure if it is possible. I don't know how, that's for
    >> sure.

    > Okay, thanks.  I don't think it's possible either.

    >> However, I am uncertain what it means to search incoming
    >> addresses without a create/query since what be the point of the
    >> search in the first place? I may have misunderstood your
    >> question, of course. Sorry if that is the case.

    > 'search checks the existing entries for those that match and shows
    > them and, optionally, allows you to update them if something has
    > changed (name, email).  I.e. it only shows entries but queries if
    > something is different than expected.  Quite useful.  It's sort of
    > halfway to 'query without interrupting the workflow for email.

Ok, I understand. And reading the doc string for
bbdb-mua-update-interactive-p does not give me any hints as how it might
be achieved. :-(

Best wishes,

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric S Fraga]

On Friday,  7 Dec 2018 at 10:55, Colin Baxter wrote:
> Ok, I understand. And reading the doc string for
> bbdb-mua-update-interactive-p does not give me any hints as how it might
> be achieved. :-(

Thanks for looking.  No worries.  It's only a minor itch that I wanted
to scratch...  bbdb (& gnus) work so well for me overall that every
little bit that is not "perfect" really stands out! :-)

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Bob Newell]

> BBDB seems a good candidate but dunno if v3 is ok (there is really
> poor litterature with it)

BBDB 3 is a bit arcane and does take time to learn and to get set up
for the way you like to work. It can be frustrating at first, but
believe me, your efforts will be well repaid in the end. At this
point, I would really miss it if it were to go away. It works
wonderfully with gnus (which is even more arcane and takes even more
time to get right, but also greatly rewards that time and trouble).

BBDB v3 is a big upgrade over v2, even though documentation lags. But
there is a mailing list and people there are very helpful.

-- 
Bob Newell
Honolulu, Hawai`i

Via Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB.

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Xavier Maillard]

> From: Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net>
> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:16:50 -1000
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> > BBDB seems a good candidate but dunno if v3 is ok (there is really
> > poor litterature with it)
> 
> BBDB 3 is a bit arcane and does take time to learn and to get set up
> for the way you like to work. It can be frustrating at first, but
> believe me, your efforts will be well repaid in the end. At this
> point, I would really miss it if it were to go away. It works
> wonderfully with gnus (which is even more arcane and takes even more
> time to get right, but also greatly rewards that time and trouble).

I don't really mind to take some time to learn the tool. If I have to,
I will. But, in the old days, when bbdb was THE tool to have, there
were such good hacks to use (I remember Sacha's ones). Nowadays,
everyone is using org-mode (which is a great tool, for usre) for all
and everything and thus, little by little, the more org-mode is
growing, the less bbdb is used.

I would really like having time to transpose some hacks from bbdbv2 to
bbdbv3 but my skills and time lack :/

> BBDB v3 is a big upgrade over v2, even though documentation lags. But
> there is a mailing list and people there are very helpful.

I do not remember the ML address, do you have it ?

Thank you.

++
-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Stefan Monnier]

>> BBDB seems a good candidate but dunno if v3 is ok (there is really
>> poor litterature with it)
> BBDB 3 is a bit arcane and does take time to learn and to get set up
> for the way you like to work.

Do you happen to have concrete examples at hand of "arcanity" and other
difficulty you encountered (or which you think someone else would
encounter)?


        Stefan

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Michael Welle]

Hello,

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>> BBDB seems a good candidate but dunno if v3 is ok (there is really
>>> poor litterature with it)
>> BBDB 3 is a bit arcane and does take time to learn and to get set up
>> for the way you like to work.
>
> Do you happen to have concrete examples at hand of "arcanity" and other
> difficulty you encountered (or which you think someone else would
> encounter)?
I wouldn't use the term arcane, but I think part of the issue -if it is
an issue- is that a lot of (most?) documentation/howtos/tutorials/stuff
out there is for bbdbv2 and that naturally doesn't work anymore with
bbdbv3. As a result, you may need more time to configure stuff to your
liking and you probably need more knowledge about how things work. And
that is putting off a lot of people, I think.

Well, my personal pet peeve is the design of bbdbv3. As with its
predecessor, support for specific applications is (deeply) build into
bbdb. I think it would be better to provide a nice general interface and
let the application camps (wanderlust, Org, foo, etc.) implement their
use cases.

Regards
hmw

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Michael Welle <mwe012008@gmx.net> writes:

> Hello,
>
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>>> BBDB seems a good candidate but dunno if v3 is ok (there is really
>>>> poor litterature with it)
>>> BBDB 3 is a bit arcane and does take time to learn and to get set up
>>> for the way you like to work.
>>
>> Do you happen to have concrete examples at hand of "arcanity" and other
>> difficulty you encountered (or which you think someone else would
>> encounter)?
> I wouldn't use the term arcane, but I think part of the issue -if it is
> an issue- is that a lot of (most?) documentation/howtos/tutorials/stuff
> out there is for bbdbv2 and that naturally doesn't work anymore with
> bbdbv3. As a result, you may need more time to configure stuff to your
> liking and you probably need more knowledge about how things work. And
> that is putting off a lot of people, I think.
>
> Well, my personal pet peeve is the design of bbdbv3. As with its
> predecessor, support for specific applications is (deeply) build into
> bbdb. I think it would be better to provide a nice general interface and
> let the application camps (wanderlust, Org, foo, etc.) implement their
> use cases.

Allow me to very gently point out the existence of EBDB (in the repos),
which was designed with this sort of thing in mind. And it has a manual!

/shameless plug

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Xavier Maillard]

> Allow me to very gently point out the existence of EBDB (in the repos),
> which was designed with this sort of thing in mind. And it has a manual!

I read through the manual quickly but I am not sure. Can it replace bbdb or is just sort of an API ?

Cheers
-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:

>> Allow me to very gently point out the existence of EBDB (in the repos),
>> which was designed with this sort of thing in mind. And it has a manual!
>
> I read through the manual quickly but I am not sure. Can it replace
> bbdb or is just sort of an API ?

Yes, it can replace BBDB. It started off as a refactor of BBDB, so still
looks and behaves very similarly, though it is starting to diverge.

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Xavier Maillard]

Eric,

can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some transformations ?

++

-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:

> Eric,
>
> can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some transformations ?

It will migrate from an existing BBDB file on startup (see the "Getting
Started" section of the manual).

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Michael Welle]

Hello,

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some
>> transformations ?
>
> It will migrate from an existing BBDB file on startup (see the "Getting
> Started" section of the manual).
it might be worth it, if not because of the interface, but because of
the uuids per record. Just backup you bbdb file before migrating ;).

Regards
hmw

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Michael Welle <mwe012008@gmx.net> writes:

> Hello,
>
> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:
>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some
>>> transformations ?
>>
>> It will migrate from an existing BBDB file on startup (see the "Getting
>> Started" section of the manual).
> it might be worth it, if not because of the interface, but because of
> the uuids per record. Just backup you bbdb file before migrating ;).

Well, to be fair, the newest version of BBDB also has uuids!

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Michael Welle]

Hello,

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Michael Welle <mwe012008@gmx.net> writes:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>
>>> Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:
>>>
>>>> Eric,
>>>>
>>>> can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some
>>>> transformations ?
>>>
>>> It will migrate from an existing BBDB file on startup (see the "Getting
>>> Started" section of the manual).
>> it might be worth it, if not because of the interface, but because of
>> the uuids per record. Just backup you bbdb file before migrating ;).
>
> Well, to be fair, the newest version of BBDB also has uuids!
ah, I totally missed that. I regard them very useful and the promise of
their availability in the near future was one (the?) reason for me to
upgrade from bbdbv2 to bbdbv3 many, many moons ago. But then they didn't
appear for a long time ;).

Regards
hmw

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Xavier Maillard]

> From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net>
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 07:41:38 -0800
>
> >>> can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some
> >>> transformations ?
> >>
> >> It will migrate from an existing BBDB file on startup (see the "Getting
> >> Started" section of the manual).
> > it might be worth it, if not because of the interface, but because of
> > the uuids per record. Just backup you bbdb file before migrating ;).
> 
> Well, to be fair, the newest version of BBDB also has uuids!

I really did not know about that. Sounds a good idea !

Cheers
-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Xavier Maillard]

> From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net>
> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:08:59 -0800
> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux)
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, mwe012008@gmx.net
> 
> Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:
> 
> > Eric,
> >
> > can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some transformations ?
> 
> It will migrate from an existing BBDB file on startup (see the "Getting
> Started" section of the manual).
> 

Here is what I got when I am trying to migrate from BBDB:

[2018-12-18 06:35:14.287] Upgrade from previous version of BBDB? (y or n) y
ebdb-migrate-parse-records: EBDB understands file format 7 but not 9.

++
-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:

>> From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net>
>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:08:59 -0800
>> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux)
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, mwe012008@gmx.net
>> 
>> Xavier Maillard <xavier@maillard.im> writes:
>> 
>> > Eric,
>> >
>> > can it work transparently with a BBDB file or does it require some transformations ?
>> 
>> It will migrate from an existing BBDB file on startup (see the "Getting
>> Started" section of the manual).
>> 
>
> Here is what I got when I am trying to migrate from BBDB:
>
> [2018-12-18 06:35:14.287] Upgrade from previous version of BBDB? (y or n) y
> ebdb-migrate-parse-records: EBDB understands file format 7 but not 9.

Thanks to Xavier for some testing -- version 0.6.2 of EBDB will be able
to handle migrating from version 9.

Eric

Re: bbdbv3 with rmail

[Xavier Maillard]

> Thanks to Xavier for some testing -- version 0.6.2 of EBDB will be able
> to handle migrating from version 9.

Thank you for your quick post to solve this issue. I am a happy EBDB testing user ;)

++
-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B