Question mail package

Question mail package

[Ergus]

Hi I have a simple question. What are the recommended
application/package for mailing these days?

I mean, What are the active users and developers using for email? Both
for the mailing list and the personal email? mu4e, gnus, something else?

And any hint to configure what ever it is?

Re: Question mail package

[Teemu Likonen]

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Ergus [2019-10-21T14:07:30+02] wrote:

> I mean, What are the active users and developers using for email? Both
> for the mailing list and the personal email? mu4e, gnus, something
> else?

Gnus is quite popular. I have used it many years and liked it.

A couple of months ago I switched to Notmuch Emacs interface. Because of
Notmuch's database it is very fast with large number of mails (currently
410598 emails here). No need to move mail files anywhere. Just search
the database (or preconfigure "named searches") and I get what I want.

Notmuch and Notmuch Emacs should be available from GNU/Linux
distributions. In Debian they are packages "notmuch" and "elpa-notmuch".
You also need a way to retrieve mail, "fetchmail" maybe.

https://notmuchmail.org/notmuch-emacs/

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Re: Question mail package

[VanL]

Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:

> Hi I have a simple question. What are the recommended
> application/package for mailing these days?
>
> I mean, What are the active users and developers using for email? Both
> for the mailing list and the personal email? mu4e, gnus, something else?
>
> And any hint to configure what ever it is?

I use gnus.  The configuration file I use is as follows:

#+BEGIN_EXAMPLE
  (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org"))
  (setq auth-sources '((:source "/usr/xxx/.authinfo.gpg")))

  (setq user-mail-address "xxx@bughat.com"
	user-full-name "xxx")

  (setq gnus-posting-styles
	     '((message-news-p        ;; A function symbol
		(signature-file "~/.gpg-fingerprint"))))

  (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
	       '(nnimap "xxx@bughat.com"
			(nnimap-user "xxx@bughat.com")
			(nnimap-address "mail.bughat.com")
			(nnimap-server-port 993)
			(nnimap-stream ssl)))

  (setq send-mail-function 'smtpmail-send-it
	message-send-mail-function 'smtpmail-send-it
	smtpmail-smtp-server "mail.bughat.com"
	smtpmail-smtp-service 587)

#+END_EXAMPLE

-- 
© 2019 VanL
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
          'If the bug bites, don't fight it.' - Nancy S. Steinhardt

Re: Question mail package

[YUE Daian]

On 2019-10-21 14:07, Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi I have a simple question. What are the recommended
> application/package for mailing these days?
>
> I mean, What are the active users and developers using for email? Both
> for the mailing list and the personal email? mu4e, gnus, something else?
>
> And any hint to configure what ever it is?

I have played with Rmail, Gnus, Mew, Mu4e and Notmuch.

I find myself Notmuch suits my needs most.

Its search and tagging facility is really awesome.

I wrote a script to tag emails after fetching them via POP3 protocol
periodically. These mails are then easily accessed through Notmuch.

And it does not change your *real* maildir files.

You may refer to my repository for configuration examples.

https://github.com/sheepduke/emacs-settings

Hope it helps.

Re: Question mail package

[Bob Newell]

> On 2019-10-21 14:07, Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> wrote:
> > Hi I have a simple question. What are the recommended
> > application/package for mailing these days?

Aloha,

This question comes up often and there is a lot of discussion in
various groups that you can access. But you characterize this as a
simple question! It is actually not especially simple. It really
depends what you want to do and how much effort you wish to put into
it.

I've used Gnus for a good 10 years and would never go back to anything
else. My configuration is over 1,000 lines of elisp now and would do
you little good, except as an example of how flexible, adaptable, and
complex(!) Gnus can be.

If you want the absolute ultimate, it's Gnus. There's never been
something that I wanted to do with email and couldn't do with Gnus,
including some semi-outrageous stuff like adapting language input
methods based on the recipient, sending individual emails to each
member of a group mailing list, and of course working with multiple
email accounts and multiple, adaptive email identities (some users
always get mail from my precious AOL account, etc.) Gnus in
combination with BBDB and org-mode blows everything else out of the
water in terms of capabilities for doing productive work with email.

But that comes at a price, which is paid in time and effort, and often
quite a lot of it, especially in the very beginning.

Once upon a time, I used rmail (which of course also comes with
emacs). Rmail is dead simple, requires relatively little
configuration, and does the basics, namely, handling email sending and
receiving. That's more than enough for some folks. And there are
products in-between rmail and Gnus in complexity and capability.

I'd suggest you think about what you want to do now with email and
what you might wish to do in the future. That may help guide your
choice.

-- 
Bob Newell
Honolulu, Hawai`i

Via Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB.

Re: Question mail package

[YUE Daian]

On 2019-10-21 21:26, Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> wrote:
>> On 2019-10-21 14:07, Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> wrote:
>> > Hi I have a simple question. What are the recommended
>> > application/package for mailing these days?
>
> ...
> 
> I've used Gnus for a good 10 years and would never go back to anything
> else. My configuration is over 1,000 lines of elisp now and would do
> you little good, except as an example of how flexible, adaptable, and
> complex(!) Gnus can be.
>
> ...
>

I totally agree with this.

Gnus can do almost everything you can think of with mail, and the
trade-off is you have to spend a quite long time to set it up.

My suggestion is googling the features of each client, just picking
something up and use it for some time, then try new things if you like.

IMHO it is a better idea to make your configurations evolve along with
your experience with Emacs, instead of trying to get everything "set"
before sailing.

And Git is your good friend.

Re: Question mail package

[Teemu Likonen]

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Bob Newell [2019-10-21T21:26:16-10] wrote:

> If you want the absolute ultimate, it's Gnus.

Yes, Gnus is great. It has the most features. I'll just point out that
Emacs's other mail user agents use partially the same code as Gnus. For
example, Notmuch Emacs uses message-mode (actually its derivative:
notmuch-message-mode) for composing messages and the same
message-sending back-end functions as Gnus. So, many of the same
configuration is available to other Emacs mail user agents. It's the
message fetching and reading part which is different.

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Re: Question mail package

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Hi Bob,

Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> writes:

> If you want the absolute ultimate, it's Gnus.

I’m also a Gnus users.  Two things to keep in mind though:

  1. Gnus becomes quite slow when handling dozens of thousands of
     messages;

  2. It blocks Emacs entirely while processing them.


I hope something could be done about it[1].  Perhaps if Gnus get
rewritten to take advantage of the new Lisp threads functionality.  Does
someone know if that is doable?


Footnotes: 

[1] Running multiple Emacs instances is not an option.

-- 
Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
<http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/>

Re: Question mail package

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Bob,
>
> Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> writes:
>
>> If you want the absolute ultimate, it's Gnus.
>
> I’m also a Gnus users.  Two things to keep in mind though:
>
>   1. Gnus becomes quite slow when handling dozens of thousands of
>      messages;
>
>   2. It blocks Emacs entirely while processing them.
>
>
> I hope something could be done about it[1].  Perhaps if Gnus get
> rewritten to take advantage of the new Lisp threads functionality.  Does
> someone know if that is doable?

What server type are you using? IMAP? maildir?

Re: Question mail package

[황병희]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> writes:
>>
>>> If you want the absolute ultimate, it's Gnus.
>>
>> I’m also a Gnus users.  Two things to keep in mind though:
>>
>>   1. Gnus becomes quite slow when handling dozens of thousands of
>>      messages;
>>
>>   2. It blocks Emacs entirely while processing them.
>>
>>
>> I hope something could be done about it[1].  Perhaps if Gnus get
>> rewritten to take advantage of the new Lisp threads functionality.  Does
>> someone know if that is doable?
>
> What server type are you using? IMAP? maildir?

Bruno's comments are true. Actually i was that trouble with Gmail's
IMAP (via nnimap). For now i solved them by using getmail. [*]

[*] http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/

Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _白衣從軍_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Question mail package

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> writes:
>> Hi Bob,
>> Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> writes:
>>> If you want the absolute ultimate, it's Gnus.
>> I’m also a Gnus users.  Two things to keep in mind though:
>>   1. Gnus becomes quite slow when handling dozens of thousands of
>>      messages;
>>   2. It blocks Emacs entirely while processing them.
>> I hope something could be done about it[1].  Perhaps if Gnus get
>> rewritten to take advantage of the new Lisp threads functionality.  Does
>> someone know if that is doable?
> What server type are you using? IMAP? maildir?

nnml and nnimap (slowness and blocking affect both).

--
Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
<http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/>

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Re: Question mail package

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday, 30 Mar 2020 at 17:56, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
>   1. Gnus becomes quite slow when handling dozens of thousands of
>      messages;

Yes, maybe, for some backends.  It works just fine with nnml for me with
10s of thousands of emails in some of the groups.

> [1] Running multiple Emacs instances is not an option.

Why not?  I used to do this all the time some years ago when I had to
use an imap mail server on the other side of the planet with large
latency.  I had one instance for gnus and one for everything else.  Just
curious.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.3.6 on Debian bullseye/sid

Re: Question mail package

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Hello Eric,

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> On Monday, 30 Mar 2020 at 17:56, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
>>   1. Gnus becomes quite slow when handling dozens of thousands of
>>      messages;
> Yes, maybe, for some backends.  It works just fine with nnml for me with
> 10s of thousands of emails in some of the groups.

For me nnml takes several minutes to process thousands of messages for
splitting, expiring, spam or ham-training.  One can see it handling each
message, one by one in the mini-buffer.


>> [1] Running multiple Emacs instances is not an option.
> Why not?  I used to do this all the time some years ago when I had to
> use an imap mail server on the other side of the planet with large
> latency.  I had one instance for gnus and one for everything else.  Just
> curious.

I use Emacs as my main computing environment.  Quoting from [1]:

  [...] to serve the noble purpose of filling into the gaps of making
  GNU Emacs a practical and convenient “computing environment” for me —
  after all it’s my main system at home and work, across several OSes:
  GNU/Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, ReactOS and FreeDOS. That means that all
  those systems boot directly onto full-screen Emacs (most graphically),
  and all my user initialization code is inside my .emacs (rather than
  .xsession, .xinitrc, .profile or .bashrc) – so all helper
  sub-processes are managed by Emacs; my window manager is EXWM
  (wherever possible), and I use Emacs for everything feasible, the only
  exception being to resort to a javascript-capable web-browser for
  sites requiring it and whose job can’t be done with Emacs alone.


Thus running another Emacs instance is undesirable for two reasons:

1) They don’t share the same Lisp interpreter; the instance using Gnus
   would be isolated.  The two instances would have to cooperate through
   primitive means like the file system and clipboard.  This is
   cumbersome.

2) Using an Emacs inside another Emacs is inconvenient and might lead to
   confusion keybind-wise.



Footnotes: 

[1]  https://oitofelix.github.io/elpa/

-- 
Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
<http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/>

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Re: Question mail package

[Jorge P. de Morais Neto]

Em [2019-10-21 seg 22:05:22+0800], YUE Daian escreveu:

> I find myself Notmuch suits my needs most.

I too use and recommend Notmuch.  Emacs Notmuch is pleasant to use, very
powerful, very fast, and reasonably simple to learn and configure (far
simpler than Gnus). I am very satisfied with it.  I have limited
experience with other Emacs clients though, as I have only tested
Notmuch, Gnus and Rmail.  Anyway, here are some nice articles:

- <https://lwn.net/Articles/705856/>
- <https://wwwtech.de/articles/2016/jul/my-personal-mail-setup>

I use Notmuch Emacs with afew and OfflineIMAP (both installed from PIP).
To get a recent version of Notmuch, I locally backport it from Debian
Sid via the procedure in the Debian Wiki:
<https://wiki.debian.org/SimpleBackportCreation>.  I should warn that,
although OfflineIMAP had great performance on my workplace, it has poor
performance with my personal email service (Disroot).  I don't know if
the fault lies with OfflineIMAP or Disroot.  I simply endure the poor
performance, I have not looked at other mail fetching solutions.

Regards
-- 
- <https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/>
- I am Brazilian.  I hope my English is correct and I welcome feedback.
- Please adopt free formats like PDF, ODF, Org, LaTeX, Opus, WebM and 7z.
- Free/libre software for Replicant, LineageOS and Android: https://f-droid.org
- [[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html][What is free software?]]

Re: Question mail package

[Teemu Likonen]

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Jorge P. de Morais Neto [2019-10-27T18:16:03-03] wrote:

> I too use and recommend Notmuch. Emacs Notmuch is pleasant to use,
> very powerful, very fast, and reasonably simple to learn and configure
> (far simpler than Gnus).

One nice thing about Notmuch is that the mail state is maintained
outside Emacs: in Maildir files and directories and the Notmuch
database. I can kill Emacs buffers freely and it won't affect my mail.
Other software can handle standard Maildir format.

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Re: Question mail package

[황병희]

Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:

> Hi I have a simple question. What are the recommended
> application/package for mailing these days?
>
> I mean, What are the active users and developers using for email? Both
> for the mailing list and the personal email? mu4e, gnus, something else?
>
> And any hint to configure what ever it is?

Personally i'm getting on Gnus' back for years.

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Question mail package

[Bob Newell]

   IMHO it is a better idea to make your configurations evolve along with
   your experience with Emacs, instead of trying to get everything "set"
   before sailing.

This is excellent advice and well worth noting. You don't have
to eat the whole elephant at once. A minimal config for Gnus,
as was presented elsewhere in this thread, is probably 30
lines or so.

It took me 10 years to get up to 1,000 lines ... that seems
about right.

-- 
Bob Newell
Honolulu, Hawai`i
- Via Gnus/BBDB/Org/Emacs/Linux

Re: Question mail package

[YUE Daian]

On 2019-10-23 09:17, Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> wrote:
>    IMHO it is a better idea to make your configurations evolve along with
>    your experience with Emacs, instead of trying to get everything "set"
>    before sailing.
>
> This is excellent advice and well worth noting. You don't have
> to eat the whole elephant at once. A minimal config for Gnus,
> as was presented elsewhere in this thread, is probably 30
> lines or so.
>
> It took me 10 years to get up to 1,000 lines ... that seems
> about right.
>
> -- 
> Bob Newell
> Honolulu, Hawai`i
> - Via Gnus/BBDB/Org/Emacs/Linux

To be honest I said it because I used to get everything "prepared"
before really using it. When I was in bachelor I spent all my spare time
within a week reading Emacs's documentation. I read almost everything.

It was not a good idea.

As for Gnus, I do not think 30 lines will give you a satisfying
experience compared with other alternatives. I tried. Maybe it was just
me.

But it has so many concepts related to good old new groups, instead of
mails. I do not think it is a good idea to recommend it to beginners.

Anyway, you have the choices.

Re: Question mail package

[VanL]

YUE Daian <sheepduke@gmail.com> writes:

> As for Gnus, I do not think 30 lines will give you a satisfying
> experience compared with other alternatives. I tried. Maybe it was just
> me.

I first used GNU Emacs 2 years after J. C. R. Licklider died and I am in
the process of leaving Apple Mail, now.  I choose Gnus in the spirit of
fighting for freedom tranquilly and to stand with Hong Kong peacefully.

-- 
© 2019 VanL
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
          'If the bug bites don't fight it.' - Nancy S. Steinhardt

Re: Question mail package

[Filipp Gunbin]

On 24/10/2019 21:27 +0800, YUE Daian wrote:

> As for Gnus, I do not think 30 lines will give you a satisfying
> experience compared with other alternatives. I tried. Maybe it was just
> me.
>
> But it has so many concepts related to good old new groups, instead of
> mails. I do not think it is a good idea to recommend it to beginners.

Maybe Gnus manual should have a section on common setups.  I have a
simple setup with 2 accounts in which I fetch all mail locally, and
don't use search (but rather try to keep mailbox - both remote and local
- clean).

To get that, I'm tweaking a handful of variables - namely
message-alternative-emails, gnus-posting-styles, gnus-select-method,
gnus-secondary-select-methods, mail-sources,
message-dont-reply-to-names, nnmail-split-methods.  It's not complex,
but I had to extract information piece by piece from different parts of
the manual.  And sending via different smtp servers is non-obvious, with
custom header "X-Message-SMTP-Method".

Filipp