From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Shawn Betts Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:42:19 GMT Message-ID: <878y4jiij7.fsf@verizon.net> References: <874qf8d3cy.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111257789 2368 80.91.229.2 (19 Mar 2005 18:43:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:43:09 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 19 19:43:09 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCiuf-0003Fn-DO for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:43:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCjBO-0007Be-Gq for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:00:22 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny07.POSTED!25c3448d!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 55 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.201.123.127 Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net Original-X-Trace: trndny07 1111257739 151.201.123.127 (Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:42:19 EST) Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:42:19 EST Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:129429 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:24984 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:24984 PT writes: > On 18 Mar 2005 22:57:17 +0100, Pascal Bourguignon > wrote: > > > PT writes: > > > >> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it > >> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for > >> newbies to get acquainted with it. > > > > C-h t > > That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial > are leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards. > > I have some colleagues using VIM and Emacs and none of them use the > standard keys for movement, all of them use the arrow keys. I've been > using emacs for 6+ years, customized it inside out, wrote minor modes > for it and yet I too use the arrow keys, not M-f and M-b and such. > > I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn > new keybindings for cursor movement. I don't really understand your longterm objective. It seems like you want to make Emacs easier to pick up for people who come from a Windows background. So without thinking much about it, I can see how it makes sense to change the keybindings to something they're used to. But what happens after that? Emacs is self consistent. Good Emacs programs follow The Emacs Way. Changing some common keybindings might help newbs to stick with it a bit longer, but pretty soon they'll hit the next layer. These newbs still haven't learned how everything works together nor have they become fimiliar with Emacs key bindings. So do you keep disfiguring Emacs to hide from them the AWFUL truth? When does it end? Eventually they'll HAVE learn how to use Emacs the way it was intended. And I sure hope so! Emacs keybindings are WAY better. In the end, the newb has to sit down and spend the time. There's no way around it. Emacs is an AWESOME system. compromising that awesomeness for cuddly fuzziness will just prolong the inevitable: the newb will probably abandon Emacs. Like you said (in one of your posts), its foreign. It takes effort to learn. If newbs believe that Emacs is better then they'll stick with it long enough for the sweet, sweet payoff. They have to want to learn it. dicking with keybindings won't change that. Its not Emacs that has to change. Its their minds. Your time is better spent erecting billboards telling ppl how insanely great Emacs is than convincing Emacs hackers they should smash holes in their Perfect System for fools. -Shawn