Re: Why emacs have not native language menu

[Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>]

Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> writes:

> Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:
>
>> Jean-Christophe Helary <fusion@mx6.tiki.ne.jp> writes:
>>> [...]
>>> That is a possibility but obviously there are much more Japanese or
>>> French people who use their software now than then.
>>
>> Yes, applications.
>>
>>
>>> What good is a software package if it can't be used by linguistically
>>> challenged people ?
>>
>> Linguistically challenged people just cannot program.
>
> What has "program" got to do with Emacs, even if you are totally
> incorrect in your assumption. 

emacs is a programming environment with a textual user interface
library (ie and "editor"). emacs = Editing MACroS.



> I know plenty of top notch programmers who
> are unable to master french or german but are happy with their native
> english.

On the other hand, all the other programmers need to learn English to
be able to program.


>> You cannot translate programming languages.  This has been tried
>> several times, BEFORE the Internet existed (eg BASICOIS, a Basic in
>> French, there was also a Pascal in French, and I bet a number of
>> variations in other languages).  All these experiment failed, because
>> programs must be readable to be useful, and French is readably only by
>> French people.  Pascal is readable by all programmers!
>
> Aha. OK. You are talking about localised lisp? Maybe I got lost here.

What else?  This is what emacs is.


>> Nowadays, with the Internet and the worldwide job market, it's just
>> impossible to translate a programming language.  And this is what
>> emacs is.
>
> No. That is NOT what emacs is. eLisp is the programming language. Emacs
> is an infrastructure which supports multiple applications programmed in
> elisp. They can be localised.

Look, if you asked to localize microemacs or nano, I'd say, no problem
go ahead.  But emacs is lisp.


>> Now if you implement an application in emacs you may try to proposed
>> localized versions.  But there are very few applications in emacs,
>> most emacs software keeps the powerful link between the programming
>> environment and the functionalities provided.  Does anybody know an
>> emacs applications where you can do _everything_ only using menus and
>> buttons?  Or where you would _want_ to do everything that way? 
>
> I think people are possibly talking at cross purposes here. Or maybe
> just me?


Well, by making the distinction between emacs and the applications (eg
doctor, gnus, vm, life, etc), I'm trying to establish a common
language here.  I'm saying that you may consider localizing
applications, but you cannot localize successfully emacs.

And for applications, you have to be careful to consider only those
emacs applications that behave very distinctly from the normal emacs
way.  A major-mode is not an emacs application, it's emacs.

As I wrote, you have to consider only the applications that can be
used only thru menu and buttons.  Any application where it's easier or
necessary to use M-x, you fail, since M-x gives you access to lisp
stuff that you cannot localize without making a mess.  



Also, the simple fact of localizing something, renders it
unprogrammable, because a programmer knows his mother tongue and
English, and cannot translate his little add-on functions and
commands.  Therefore users of localized applications cannot share
their code anymore, and you break the opensource philosophy.




-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/