[GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Carlos Konstanski]

If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
inconclusive, that's bad.

The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
the subject line of this email. Please?

Sincerely,

Carlos Konstanski

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Óscar Fuentes]

Carlos Konstanski <ckonstanski@pippiandcarlos.com> writes:

> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
> subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
> have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
> inconclusive, that's bad.
>
> The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
> so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
> the subject line of this email. Please?

Another option is to classify the emails depending on the information
contained on the headers of the message.

If your email client is not capable enough for doing that, switch to a
good one. This is better than to require changes from every mailing list
you read.

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[allan gottlieb]

On Sun, Apr 30 2017, Carlos Konstanski wrote:

> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
> subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
> have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
> inconclusive, that's bad.
>
> The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
> so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
> the subject line of this email. Please?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carlos Konstanski

A problem with [thing] is that it makes the subject line longer and may
result in truncation.  I would ask that if added it is *appended* not
*prepended*.

What I do is divide mail into groups.  All mail from this list already
contains a header line like

List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs.gnu.org>

At least in gnus it is easy to divide mail by different List-Id's

allan

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Carlos Konstanski wrote:

> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of
> spam. You need to scan the subject lines in
> your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's
> ham. If you have to open an email to decide
> because the subject line is inconclusive,
> that's bad.

Use Gmane to read mailing lists as newsgroups.
That way, this isn't a mailing list anymore.
At least in terms of the interface, it is
a newsgroup, namely gmane.emacs.help !
Typically, I keep an eye on some 20
groups/lists. Some are there for software
I don't use that often, but whenever I do,
I want them there ready if I have some issues.
Other groups/lists I follow more closely.
It would be a royal pain if *all* of this
traffic ended up in the same INBOX!

Here is a screenshot that shows Gmane in Gnus
and Emacs:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/gnus/gnus-group.png

> The subject lines for this mailing list need to
> have a [thing] injected so that it's obvious
> that it is email for this list. Note my example
> in the subject line of this email. Please?

Sorry, the subjects line approach won't help.
You're relying on humans to act perfectly
instead of solving this with technology at your
end of the pipe. That won't ever work.
Check out Gmane!

If you use Gnus, you can also use another
technique, called splitting mails. If you use
Gnus, there is absolutely no reason not to use
Gmane as well which is much better than
splitting mails. However, I mention it because
in other clients there might be
something similar. It is like the poor man's
Gnus and Gmane. It is up to you if you want to
be rich or poor in this case, because the
richness is also free och charge!

As for spam, get a new e-mail account, then
don't ever put it on a home page, and never
submit it to any shade sites.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[ken]

On 04/30/2017 11:39 AM, Carlos Konstanski wrote:
> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
> subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
> have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
> inconclusive, that's bad.
>
> The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
> so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
> the subject line of this email. Please?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carlos Konstanski
>

I agree.  I'm much less likely to delete without reading those emails 
which follow your suggestion.

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 08:52:45AM -0400, ken wrote:
> On 04/30/2017 11:39 AM, Carlos Konstanski wrote:
> >If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
> >subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
> >have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
> >inconclusive, that's bad.
> >
> >The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
> >so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
> >the subject line of this email. Please?
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Carlos Konstanski
> >
> 
> I agree.  I'm much less likely to delete without reading those
> emails which follow your suggestion.

Folks,

I'd suggest you learn to use what is there. The mailing list software
inserts lots of useful headers already marking the mails as coming
from the Emacs mailing list (that what you propose the mailing list
software should be inserting into the subject line), namely:

  List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs.gnu.org>
  List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/help-gnu-emacs>,
          <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
  List-Archive: <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/>
  List-Post: <mailto:help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
  List-Help: <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
  List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs>,
          <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>

Better to teach your mail client to display (a suitable part of) this
information in a way that suits you instead of messing up the "Subject:"
line for everybody else. Hopefully your mail client can pull off this
trick, otherwise I'd want my money back if I were you :-)

Please, don't let your (perceived?) user agent's limitations break the
Internet for everybody else. The use case you're thinking of is what
those "List-XXX" headers are for!

cheers
- -- tomás
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlkIjHUACgkQBcgs9XrR2kb43QCeOYegSSkTqZukzSs8GjpQPjlq
J5UAn0G9hsxJ9G0Wyw2Du54TunfI5bdI
=q3ug
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Harry Putnam]

ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:

> On 04/30/2017 11:39 AM, Carlos Konstanski wrote:
>> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
>> subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
>> have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
>> inconclusive, that's bad.
>>
>> The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
>> so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
>> the subject line of this email. Please?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Carlos Konstanski
>>
>
> I agree.  I'm much less likely to delete without reading those emails
> which follow your suggestion.

+.02
+.02 about using gmane as well

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Danny YUE]

On 2017-05-02 13:41, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 08:52:45AM -0400, ken wrote:
>> On 04/30/2017 11:39 AM, Carlos Konstanski wrote:
>> >If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
>> >subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
>> >have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
>> >inconclusive, that's bad.
>> >
>> >The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
>> >so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
>> >the subject line of this email. Please?
>> >
>> >Sincerely,
>> >
>> >Carlos Konstanski
>> >
>> 
>> I agree.  I'm much less likely to delete without reading those
>> emails which follow your suggestion.
>
> Folks,
>
> I'd suggest you learn to use what is there. The mailing list software
> inserts lots of useful headers already marking the mails as coming
> from the Emacs mailing list (that what you propose the mailing list
> software should be inserting into the subject line), namely:
>
>   List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs.gnu.org>
>   List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/help-gnu-emacs>,
>           <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>   List-Archive: <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/>
>   List-Post: <mailto:help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
>   List-Help: <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
>   List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs>,
>           <mailto:help-gnu-emacs-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
>
> Better to teach your mail client to display (a suitable part of) this
> information in a way that suits you instead of messing up the "Subject:"
> line for everybody else. Hopefully your mail client can pull off this
> trick, otherwise I'd want my money back if I were you :-)
>
> Please, don't let your (perceived?) user agent's limitations break the
> Internet for everybody else. The use case you're thinking of is what
> those "List-XXX" headers are for!
>
> cheers
> - -- tomás
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlkIjHUACgkQBcgs9XrR2kb43QCeOYegSSkTqZukzSs8GjpQPjlq
> J5UAn0G9hsxJ9G0Wyw2Du54TunfI5bdI
> =q3ug
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Sharp, but makes sense.
Just take myself as an example: I am using mu4e in Emacs for viewing
emails. It has information about "List" which shows which mailing list a
new email comes from. 


So I can definitely recognize this is from "EmacsUser" list and open
it...

You see, try some tools out and it may not be a problem any more.

Hope it helps.

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[ken]

On 05/02/2017 09:41 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 08:52:45AM -0400, ken wrote:
>> On 04/30/2017 11:39 AM, Carlos Konstanski wrote:
>>> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
>>> subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
>>> have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
>>> inconclusive, that's bad.
>>>
>>> The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
>>> so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
>>> the subject line of this email. Please?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Carlos Konstanski
>>>
>> I agree.  I'm much less likely to delete without reading those
>> emails which follow your suggestion.
> Folks,
>
> I'd suggest you learn to use what is there. ....

I've heard all these arguments/instructions before.  They are neither 
comforting nor persuasive.  Also, I've been managing five mailing lists 
for about ten years, all of which have [mailing-list-name] descriptors 
(and many more other mailing lists earlier for fewer numbers of years), 
and absolutely *no one* /ever/ complained, or even mentioned anything, 
about those descriptors. Heck, I'd guess over the past thirty years I'm 
been a member of easily a hundred different mailing lists, and never 
have I heard a complaint about those paltry few helpful characters 
appearing in list mail Subject lines.  So what problem does eliminating 
them meant to solve?

Secondly, I use Thunderbird and, personally, am not at all challenged to 
create a mail filter.  (I've done this also using other, less 
user-friendly mail software long before Thunderbird existed.)  But there 
was a time, a long time ago, when I was new to mailing lists and it was 
definitely a challenge.  The whole concept of a mailing list was foreign 
and a mystery.  There are still people today who are new to mailing 
lists.  There always will be.  Those are the people I am relating to, 
people who have a problem or question, are told to join this or that 
mailing list, somehow manage to find one, wade through the steps to 
subscribe, aren't sure they're subscribed, not even sure what 
"subscribed" means, then eventually (hopefully) find "it's working" for 
them (sort of)... then someone on that list gives them further 
instructions on properly managing their mail.  Yes, it's probably no big 
deal for many here to set up and manage mail filters, and they're quite 
proud they can, and so expect everyone to do the same.  The fact is, not 
everyone can... not everyone wants to bother.

Third, let's put the responsibility shoe on the other foot.  Why don't 
we put the descriptors into all list mail and those who don't want them 
can set up filters on their systems to take them out?

Finally, computers and software are meant to make life and things 
easier.  A lot of tech people, and it seems especially Linux people, 
don't get that.  They appreciate and love wading through the complexity 
and seem to want others to as well.  But there are people who aren't as 
much enamored with all the technology and have other priorities... 
writing, for instance.  Isn't that supposed to be what emacs is about?

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[hector]

On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 01:05:44PM -0400, ken wrote:
> 
> I've heard all these arguments/instructions before.  They are
> neither comforting nor persuasive.  Also, I've been managing five
> mailing lists for about ten years, all of which have
> [mailing-list-name] descriptors (and many more other mailing lists
> earlier for fewer numbers of years), and absolutely *no one* /ever/
> complained, or even mentioned anything, about those descriptors.
> Heck, I'd guess over the past thirty years I'm been a member of
> easily a hundred different mailing lists, and never have I heard a
> complaint about those paltry few helpful characters appearing in
> list mail Subject lines.  So what problem does eliminating them
> meant to solve?

I don't think this is a reason to do something. Everybody could
be doing it wrong.

> Finally, computers and software are meant to make life and things
> easier.  A lot of tech people, and it seems especially Linux people,
> don't get that.  They appreciate and love wading through the
> complexity and seem to want others to as well.  But there are people
> who aren't as much enamored with all the technology and have other
> priorities... writing, for instance.  Isn't that supposed to be what
> emacs is about?

I can understand this but still don't see it's enough to change
the current behaviour. If my mail gets cluttered with "[from-list]"
stuff it doesn't make my life easier. One real-world example:
"[maillist-1] Fwd: [mailist-2] Re: Subject"

Personally I am with tomas. Here in Spain we say "un sitio para
cada cosa y cada cosa en su sitio" (each thing in its place).
If there is a header to put this information let's use it and.
Subject is for "subject". Nothing more. The mail relays keep
inserting all kinds of things here. Even the "Re:" is annoying
for me. So I think it's good as it is now.

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Bob Proulx]

Oh boy!  Another subject line tag debate.  Again.  What is even better
is that it can never be off topic for any mailing list because every
mailing list has a subject line.  Therefore this debate is doomed to
happen again and again on every mailing list.  Just like quoting
styles.  Sigh.

ken wrote:
> I've heard all these arguments/instructions before.  They are neither
> comforting nor persuasive.

I have as well.  On both sides.  In the end I have decided there is no
way to appease everyone.  Because people like what they like and each
person likes different things.  People work using work flows that are
different and will not change those work flows to the other people's
work flows.  Therefore what we end up with are camps of people who
tolerate the diversity of the other camp.

> Also, I've been managing five mailing lists for about ten years, all
> of which have [mailing-list-name] descriptors (and many more other
> mailing lists earlier for fewer numbers of years), and absolutely
> *no one* /ever/ complained, or even mentioned anything, about those
> descriptors.

I find that exceedingly difficult to believe.  In fact the possibility
is vanishingly small.  Because for example let me complain about those
tags right here and now!  Which means you cannot make that claim in
the future moving forward from this point.  Because I have now
complained about them.  You will never be able to make that claim in
the future or someone will be able to point to this message and show
my complaint. :-)

I have been administering mailing lists for decades and I have been
reading complaints about both the presence and absence of subject line
tags since well before then.  The one universal constant is that
people will complain.  About everything possible.  What color do we
paint the bike shed?

>...
> There are still people today who are new to mailing lists.  There always
> will be.  Those are the people I am relating to, people who have a problem
> or question, are told to join this or that mailing list, somehow manage to
> find one, wade through the steps to subscribe, aren't sure they're
> subscribed, not even sure what "subscribed" means, then eventually
> (hopefully) find "it's working" for them (sort of)...

That proposal is a race to the bottom.  If anyone needs to learn
something then no one can.  I reject the idea that we all must move to
the lowest common denominator.

Instead I think we should embrace the diversity of it.  For example
there have been proponents for an emacs topic web Q&A site such as
stack exchange, stack overflow, and so forth.  (I forget the details
now.)  For newcomers that is even more accessible than mailing lists
because one need only know how to browse the web to access it.  And so
forth.  Maybe a GNU Social or Disaspora group?

> then someone on that list gives them further instructions on
> properly managing their mail.  Yes, it's probably no big deal for
> many here to set up and manage mail filters, and they're quite proud
> they can, and so expect everyone to do the same.  The fact is, not
> everyone can... not everyone wants to bother.

I think there is a huge value in the community coming together to help
educate, train, help out, lift up people who are coming to the
community.  It takes a whole village to raise a child.  I think that
is one of the best parts of our communities.  We join together help
each other out.  We build schools.  We educate.  We train.  An
educated person is more help and benefit to the community.  I do not
believe that avoiding the need for education, to enable existence
without education, is a good direction for any community.

> Third, let's put the responsibility shoe on the other foot.  Why don't we
> put the descriptors into all list mail and those who don't want them can set
> up filters on their systems to take them out?

That symmetrical argument is reversible.  Let's remove all tags from
all mailing lists and the people who want them can add them.  Same
thing in reverse.  Equally valid.

Bob

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Harry Putnam wrote:

> +.02 +.02 about using gmane as well

+.02? Is that a new smiley from Korea?

Gmane is the proper solution. Mail splitting
based on whatever header is a poor man's
solution that will require tons of work and the
result will not be even close to Gmane anyway
where everything is automated thru
a bullet-proof interface intended for the very
purpose! If you are an Emacs person, use Gnus.
If you are not an Emacs person, hey ... what
kind of person would THAT be?!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Bob Proulx]

Carlos Konstanski wrote:
> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
> subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
> have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
> inconclusive, that's bad.

I think this is an XY problem.  The underlying problem is that you are
getting too much spam.  That is bad and should be solved.  And a
secondary problem is not filtering mail by mailing list.  That is
something this emacs help topic list can help with fixing.

I see that you are using gnus.  Could another gnus user make a
suggestion as to how Carlos can improve the gnus work flow to be able
to read through help-gnu-emacs mail more efficiently and effectively?
(I am not a gnus user or I would jump in there.)  How can Carlos using
gnus limit the mailbox to only the messages that came through the
help-gnu-mailing list?  (List-Id: .*<help-gnu-emacs.gnu.org>)

If you read the help-gnu-emacs mailing list messages you should see
very little spam here.  Every so often one sneaks in through the
Standford newsgroup gateway.  That is impossible to prevent without
cutting off the newsgroup.  But other than those few I hope readers
see very little spam from this mailing list.

> The subject lines for this mailing list need to have a [thing] injected
> so that it's obvious that it is email for this list. Note my example in
> the subject line of this email. Please?

Subject line tags cause problems in many different ways.  One of them
is that people *think* (wrongly) they are the only way to filter
email.  Therefore if they don't see something in the subject line then
they feel they are prevented from filtering mail!  This is generally
damaging to the ecosystem by encouraging an ignorance of email.

Those tags take up a lot of space in the subject lines.  It is not
unusual to see the entirety of the subject line consumed by multiple
tags.

Those tags often get mangled by mail clients setting up the reply.  It
isn't unusual to see "Re: [subject tag] Re: [subject tag] Re: " appear
in mailing lists with subject tags.

Those tags don't survive very well in the context of cross posts.
Because each list wants to see its tag added to the line.  It isn't
unusual to see "Re: [TAG111] [TAG222] [TAG111] [TAG222] " appear in
mailing lists that use tags.

But I am all for people writing better subject lines on their
messages!  That is what I thought I would hear when I first read that
subject line. :-)

Bob

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx wrote:

>> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of
>> spam. You need to scan the subject lines in
>> your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's
>> ham. If you have to open an email to decide
>> because the subject line is inconclusive,
>> that's bad.
>
> I think this is an XY problem. The underlying
> problem is that you are getting too much
> spam. That is bad and should be solved.
> And a secondary problem is not filtering mail
> by mailing list. That is something this emacs
> help topic list can help with fixing.

Sure can :)

> I see that you are using gnus. Could another
> gnus user make a suggestion as to how Carlos
> can improve the gnus work flow to be able to
> read through help-gnu-emacs mail more
> efficiently and effectively?

...?

Gmane has been mentioned in *three* posts by
now :)

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/gnus/gnus-group.png

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[allan gottlieb]

On Tue, May 02 2017, Bob Proulx wrote:

> Carlos Konstanski wrote:
>> If you're like me, you get a whole lot of spam. You need to scan the
>> subject lines in your INBOX to decide what's spam and what's ham. If you
>> have to open an email to decide because the subject line is
>> inconclusive, that's bad.
>
> I think this is an XY problem.  The underlying problem is that you are
> getting too much spam.  That is bad and should be solved.  And a
> secondary problem is not filtering mail by mailing list.  That is
> something this emacs help topic list can help with fixing.
>
> I see that you are using gnus.  Could another gnus user make a
> suggestion as to how Carlos can improve the gnus work flow to be able
> to read through help-gnu-emacs mail more efficiently and effectively?

M-x customize-option RET nnmail-split-methods

Put a pattern for list-id.
It is easy to do with customize.

The result for me is below (from ~/.emacs.d/lisp/custom-file.el).

allan

================================================================

 '(nnmail-split-methods
   (quote
    (("arch" "List-Id: <csci_ua_0436_001_fa16.cs.nyu.edu>")
     ("os202" "List-Id: <csci_ua_0202_001_sp17.cs.nyu.edu>")
     ("os2250" "List-Id: <csci_ga_2250_002_sp17.cs.nyu.edu>")
     ("introCS" "List-Id: <csci_ua_0101_002_fa15.cs.nyu.edu>")
     ("ds" "List-Id: <csci_ua_0102_004_sp13.cs.nyu.edu>")
     ("gentoo" "List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org>")
     ("emacs" "List-Id: \\(Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs.gnu.org>\\)\\|\\(\"Emacs development discussions.\" <emacs-devel.gnu.org>\\)")
     ("twolakeclub" "List-Id: \\(<twolakeclub.googlegroups.com>\\)\\|\\(<3lakes.googlegroups.com>\\)\\|\\(<three-lakes-community-bulletin-board.googlegroups.com>\\)\\|<twolakeclub.yahoogroups.com>")
     ("broadway7" "List-Id:.*community list for inhabitants of 7th fl.")
     ("gnome" "List-Id: \\(General discussion <gnome-list.gnome.org>\\)\\|\\(Announcements only <gnome-announce-list.gnome.org>\\)")
     ("dia" "List-Id: discussions about usage and development of dia <dia-list.gnome.org>")
     ("gnus" "List-Id:.*Announcements and discussions for GNUS")
     ("evolution" "List-Id: General discussion and user queries of Evolution")
     ("gnome-foundation" "List-Id: \\(Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation\\)\\|\\(Official GNOME Foundation announcements\\)")
     ("linux-dell-laptops" "List-Id: <linux-dell-laptops.yahoogroups.com>")
     ("jfc" "\\(To: .*jfc@bestweb.net\\)\\|\\(From: JFC OFFICE\\)")
     ("MAIL" ""))))

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Bob Proulx]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Gmane has been mentioned in *three* posts by
> now :)
> 
>     http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/gnus/gnus-group.png

But Gmane has been discontinued since last July 2016.  It is not
currently an option for people.  Offline for most of the past year.

For those wishing to read up on the saga these three in this order
should get you up to speed on things.

  https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/

  http://gmane.org/find.php?list=help+gnu+emacs

  http://home.gmane.org/

I was sad to see Lars discontinue Gmane.  It was a good resource.

Bob

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 11:12:05PM +0800, Danny YUE wrote:

[...]

> Sharp, but makes sense.

Sorry if it came across as "sharp". On a second reading I see what
you mean. That wasn't my intention.

See, I'm in this business for long enough and have seen this pattern
(degradating mail for all of us just for not knowing what is out
there). I'll refrain from enumerating all the examples but this
one: Microsoft, insisting on doing message threading based on
Subject instead of on Message-ID, just because their @#&%$ mail
client is too broken to correctly "do" Message-ID ultimately forces
their lower standard on all of us.

Now one can argue that some agents (Microsoft is surely among them,
but far from alone) have a deep financial stake on keeping mail semi-
broken: after all it's a decentral service, well-established, difficult
to silo. But seeing ourselves, who should be fighting to keep the last
few really free services out there in a working order following the
same pattern makes me... sad. Sometimes a bit angry. Sorry again.

I'll try to control my temper better the next time.

> Just take myself as an example: I am using mu4e in Emacs for viewing
> emails. It has information about "List" which shows which mailing list a
> new email comes from. 
> 
> 
> So I can definitely recognize this is from "EmacsUser" list and open
> it...
> 
> You see, try some tools out and it may not be a problem any more.

Thanks for offering a constructive possibility :-)

regards
- -- tomás
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlkJma4ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kZ4+QCfTgOtf28rWDhd88dEjDs6T77k
1x0AniBTeaP0Dk8H6I2535+AFOSJMFVy
=lcMr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 12:38:03PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Oh boy!  Another subject line tag debate [...]

Yah, the old dogs :-)

I decided to stay out of the bikeshed. I already reacted once a
bit sharper than I wanted and I think I've said all I think I
had to. So, to not make the bikeshed larger...

But...

[...]

> > There are still people today who are new to mailing lists.  There always
> > will be [...]

> That proposal is a race to the bottom.  If anyone needs to learn
> something then no one can.  I reject the idea that we all must move to
> the lowest common denominator.

thaks for putting that dilemma so concisely.

Regards
- -- tomás
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlkJm1IACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbzeACcDXvpgARXiBzTWHQYaslGQ8ML
4hkAnAuT9K9OEIFy/rA4hwPE5Diupc0o
=acEt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Danny YUE]

On 2017-05-03 08:49, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 11:12:05PM +0800, Danny YUE wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Sharp, but makes sense.
>
> Sorry if it came across as "sharp". On a second reading I see what
> you mean. That wasn't my intention.
>
> See, I'm in this business for long enough and have seen this pattern
> (degradating mail for all of us just for not knowing what is out
> there). I'll refrain from enumerating all the examples but this
> one: Microsoft, insisting on doing message threading based on
> Subject instead of on Message-ID, just because their @#&%$ mail
> client is too broken to correctly "do" Message-ID ultimately forces
> their lower standard on all of us.
>
> Now one can argue that some agents (Microsoft is surely among them,
> but far from alone) have a deep financial stake on keeping mail semi-
> broken: after all it's a decentral service, well-established, difficult
> to silo. But seeing ourselves, who should be fighting to keep the last
> few really free services out there in a working order following the
> same pattern makes me... sad. Sometimes a bit angry. Sorry again.
>
> I'll try to control my temper better the next time.
>
>> Just take myself as an example: I am using mu4e in Emacs for viewing
>> emails. It has information about "List" which shows which mailing list a
>> new email comes from.
>>
>>
>> So I can definitely recognize this is from "EmacsUser" list and open
>> it...
>>
>> You see, try some tools out and it may not be a problem any more.
>
> Thanks for offering a constructive possibility :-)
>
> regards
> - -- tomás
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlkJma4ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kZ4+QCfTgOtf28rWDhd88dEjDs6T77k
> 1x0AniBTeaP0Dk8H6I2535+AFOSJMFVy
> =lcMr
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I believe there is a misunderstanding here, and I apologize if my
expression made this happen.
In fact I wanted to say "I agree with you". Maybe I should have put this
line in front of my last email ;)

I took myself as an example to show that using (and making) better tool
makes more sense than forcing every other human being to follow one
pattern that cannot be easily judged better or worse.

Personally I do not think adding [TAG] into the subject line is a good
idea, because that is more like a personal preference than something
which really brings benefits. Some people favor it, some people hate
it, some others don't really care, more of a taste instead of
correctness.

Sorry again for unclear message.


Danny

Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, May 03, 2017 at 05:49:00PM +0800, Danny YUE wrote:
> 
> On 2017-05-03 08:49, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 11:12:05PM +0800, Danny YUE wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> Sharp, but makes sense.
> >
> > Sorry if it came across as "sharp". On a second reading I see what
> > you mean. That wasn't my intention.

[...]

> I believe there is a misunderstanding here, and I apologize if my
> expression made this happen.

Nevertheless you made me realize a point I'm glad I realized. So thanks
for that :)

> In fact I wanted to say "I agree with you". Maybe I should have put this
> line in front of my last email ;)
> 
> I took myself as an example to show that using (and making) better tool
> makes more sense than forcing every other human being to follow one
> pattern that cannot be easily judged better or worse.
> 
> Personally I do not think adding [TAG] into the subject line is a good
> idea, because that is more like a personal preference than something
> which really brings benefits. Some people favor it, some people hate
> it, some others don't really care, more of a taste instead of
> correctness.

I got from your message that *in content* we do agree, yes.

> Sorry again for unclear message.

No need to -- something good came out of that :-)

cheers
- -- tomás
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlkJsGcACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYrHwCfZ1RnlBCCBC2qqkMroU+Vc0kL
m6AAnjd4PEGst4Tyzyq/GBoSyvSzhB3Q
=CixP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Óscar Fuentes]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> But Gmane has been discontinued since last July 2016.  It is not
> currently an option for people.  Offline for most of the past year.

No, a new team took over Gmane. It never stopped. Right now I'm reading
(and posting to) emacs-help from Gmane.

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> But Gmane has been discontinued since last July
> 2016. It is not currently an option for people.
> Offline for most of the past year.
>
> For those wishing to read up on the saga these three
> in this order should get you up to speed on things.
>
>   https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
>
>   http://gmane.org/find.php?list=help+gnu+emacs
>
>   http://home.gmane.org/
>
> I was sad to see Lars discontinue Gmane. It was
> a good resource.

For his work on Gnus and Gmane, Lars is a *legend*
were it so to stop forever tomorrow. But it hasn't
stopped and God willing it won't. I have been using it
all this time and I still am, I am typing this in
a message buffer hooked to gmane.emacs.help !

Usenet was one of the best things ever and in many
ways Gmane is better, at least in terms of technology.
In terms of the content, it is both better and worse.
It is better because it is much more to the point,
less flame wars etc. One should then remember that
Usenet was once thought of as a very disciplined
place. Gmane and the listbots-as-newsgroups is
super-disciplined then, I suppose. The drawback is
that on groups like for example rec.bicycles.tech
there is tons of off-topic discussions that are
actually healthy and very interesting. That culture is
lost here to a great extent. But not entirely; compare
the SX Q&A sites where there is no culture whatsoever,
actually it is impossible, built-in in the
architecture. Those sites are very useful, so it is
not an issue of what is better. As for me, I always
wanted the culture *and* the technology. Just because
I do computers doesn't mean I am a computer or want to
be one. Did I find the culture? Well, Gnus and Gmane
and listbots-as-newsgroups as well as real Usenet
groups (aioe, also thru Gnus) are the closest I got.

Perhaps it is a lost cause, because

    you can fire your arrows from the tower of Babel,
    but you can NEVER strike God

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Nick Dokos]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:
>
>> But Gmane has been discontinued since last July
>> 2016. It is not currently an option for people.
>> Offline for most of the past year.
>>
>> For those wishing to read up on the saga these three
>> in this order should get you up to speed on things.
>>
>>   https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
>>
>>   http://gmane.org/find.php?list=help+gnu+emacs
>>
>>   http://home.gmane.org/
>>
>> I was sad to see Lars discontinue Gmane. It was
>> a good resource.
>
> For his work on Gnus and Gmane, Lars is a *legend*
> were it so to stop forever tomorrow. But it hasn't
> stopped and God willing it won't. I have been using it
> all this time and I still am, I am typing this in
> a message buffer hooked to gmane.emacs.help !

AFAIK, Lars has dissociated himself from Gmane, but he has given the
spool to a couple of people who are trying to bring everything back
(with a new implementation). The NNTP part of this works fine (I too
read the mailing list as a news group from gmane), but there is a lot
of work still to be done (e.g. search does *not* work afaik). The new
people set up a blog (https://home/gmane.org/) but there has been no
progress update since last September. I hope they are still working on
it.

>
> Usenet was one of the best things ever and in many
> ways Gmane is better, at least in terms of technology.
> In terms of the content, it is both better and worse.
> It is better because it is much more to the point,
> less flame wars etc. One should then remember that
> Usenet was once thought of as a very disciplined
> place. Gmane and the listbots-as-newsgroups is
> super-disciplined then, I suppose. The drawback is
> that on groups like for example rec.bicycles.tech
> there is tons of off-topic discussions that are
> actually healthy and very interesting. That culture is
> lost here to a great extent. But not entirely; compare
> the SX Q&A sites where there is no culture whatsoever,
> actually it is impossible, built-in in the
> architecture. Those sites are very useful, so it is
> not an issue of what is better. As for me, I always
> wanted the culture *and* the technology. Just because
> I do computers doesn't mean I am a computer or want to
> be one. Did I find the culture? Well, Gnus and Gmane
> and listbots-as-newsgroups as well as real Usenet
> groups (aioe, also thru Gnus) are the closest I got.
>
> Perhaps it is a lost cause, because
>
>     you can fire your arrows from the tower of Babel,
>     but you can NEVER strike God

-- 
Nick

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> writes:

> AFAIK, Lars has dissociated himself from Gmane, but
> he has given the spool to a couple of people who are
> trying to bring everything back (with a new
> implementation). The NNTP part of this works fine

... you mean there are other parts of Gmane?

> (I too read the mailing list as a news group from
> gmane), but there is a lot of work still to be done
> (e.g. search does *not* work afaik).

"search" - you mean search for words and phrases in
posts, like a web archive for all of Gmane?

I heard of a web interface to it all but never used it
and I think that is a common situation.

Besides, Gmane not being uniformly searchable doesn't
mean the contents isn't searchable on the web, because
those mailing lists have archives of their own - just
Google your own posts or see in the headers where it
ends up.

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 26 Blogomatic articles -                   

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> For those wishing to read up on the saga these three
> in this order should get you up to speed on things.
>
>   https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/

I read that article back then, and I remember on one
of the groups (be it gmane.discuss) everyone,
including YT, encouraged Lars not to quit or to have
it handed over to someone else. What I remember he all
but instantly agreed not to have Gmane
disappear completely.

How anyone can have an IT job, Gnus, Gmane,
what's-the-name-of-the-web-browser (including
documentation) *and* a blog is beyond me. I don't
know, man.

Anyway if you read that article, you *do* get the
impression that it is the archive and web interface
that is the key part of Gmane. So maybe people
actually used that!

Except for this paragraph that sums it all up:

    The nice thing about a mailing list archive (with
    NNTP and HTTP interfaces) is that it enables
    software maintainers to say (whenever somebody
    suggests using Spiffy Collaboration Tool of the
    Month instead of yucky mailing lists) is “well,
    just read the stuff on Gmane, then”. I feel like
    I’m letting down a generation here.

Ha ha, I likewise very much dislike the "SCTs"!

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 26 Blogomatic articles -                   

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2017-05-03, at 22:12, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> [...] But not entirely; compare
> the SX Q&A sites where there is no culture whatsoever,
> actually it is impossible, built-in in the
> architecture. [...]

WHAT⁈  Have you seen TeX.SE?  A *very* specific (and nice) place with
a *very* specific (and nice) culture.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> writes:

>> [...] But not entirely; compare the SX Q&A sites
>> where there is no culture whatsoever, actually it
>> is impossible, built-in in the architecture. [...]
>
> Have you seen TeX.SE? A *very* specific (and nice)
> place with a *very* specific (and nice) culture.

Among the SX sites, that site may stick out a bit in
a positive direction (enthusiasm for helping and being
active rather than just showing off
we-know-what-it's-about and collecting "reputation"),
however compared to the culture of Usenet it is still
just a web wiki-like interface to a home page!

If you skim thru the jargon file you will see it says
over and over "this was first discussed on the
newsgroup X" or "this term refers to a person on
a newsgroup that always does this and that" etc.

Also Usenet was/is distributed and growing in that
there were/are new newsgroups all the time and people
doing their crazy stuff all over. That's cyberpunk
warriors compared to the typical stinking
intellectuals that cannot do laundry that prefer the
SX sites were they can boast their silly "reputation".

As a reference accessible thru Google tho they have
certainly helped me many times googling error
messages. As has messages on listbots/newsgroups
archives (sometimes even written by me) appearing by
the same method...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> writes:

>> [...] But not entirely; compare the SX Q&A sites
>> where there is no culture whatsoever, actually it
>> is impossible, built-in in the architecture. [...]
>
> Have you seen TeX.SE? A *very* specific (and nice)
> place with a *very* specific (and nice) culture.

Among the SX sites, that site may stick out a bit in
a positive direction (enthusiasm for helping and being
active rather than just showing off
we-know-what-it's-about and collecting "reputation"),
however compared to the culture of Usenet it is still
just a web wiki-like interface to a home page!

If you skim thru the jargon file you will see it says
over and over "this was first discussed on the
newsgroup X" or "this term refers to a person on
a newsgroup that always does this and that" etc.

Also Usenet was/is distributed and growing in that
there were/are new newsgroups all the time and people
doing their crazy stuff all over. That's cyberpunk
warriors compared to the typical stinking
intellectuals that cannot do laundry that prefer the
SX sites were they can boast their silly "reputation".

As a reference accessible thru Google tho they have
certainly helped me many times googling error
messages. As has messages on listbots/newsgroups
archives (sometimes even written by me) appearing by
the same method...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

allan gottlieb wrote:

> Put a pattern for list-id. It is easy to do
> with customize.

Compared with Gmane, where you just add the
mailing list from a long list of everything
available, mucking around with regular
expressions based on header values etc.
isn't easy. At least not fast. Such thing can
also be subject to change.

But there are several other advantages with
Gmane compared to mail splitting:

    1) Not getting registered on all those
       mailing lists, fiddling with accounts
       and password and autoreplies and God
       knows what; likewise no messy
       "unsubscription" thru web or mail
       interfaces, instead just
       `gnus-group-kill-group'.

    2) You don't get everything (every single
       message) to you hard drive. Based on the
       Subject line, you can pick and choose
       whatever. I'm onto so many mailing lists
       if I didn't get them as newsgroups it
       would be unbarrable getting them all.
       Like first thing of the day/night would
       be wait for ages while all those zillion
       messages are downloaded...

    3) No web search required to find new
       lists/groups (OK, related to what
       I wrote in the first paragraph)

    4) And more...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Nick Dokos]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> AFAIK, Lars has dissociated himself from Gmane, but
>> he has given the spool to a couple of people who are
>> trying to bring everything back (with a new
>> implementation). The NNTP part of this works fine
>
> ... you mean there are other parts of Gmane?
>

:-)

>> (I too read the mailing list as a news group from
>> gmane), but there is a lot of work still to be done
>> (e.g. search does *not* work afaik).
>
> "search" - you mean search for words and phrases in
> posts, like a web archive for all of Gmane?
>
> I heard of a web interface to it all but never used it
> and I think that is a common situation.
>

You are better off then:

If you *had*, you'd be spoilt by it, and you would be crying
the bitter tears that those of us who did are now crying.

> Besides, Gmane not being uniformly searchable doesn't
> mean the contents isn't searchable on the web, because
> those mailing lists have archives of their own - just
> Google your own posts or see in the headers where it
> ends up.

I have tried to use the search "feature" on
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/ e.g.

Two non-exclusive possibilities: I don't know what I'm doing or it is
a cruel joke. Gmane's search might have had problems, but you could
find things with it.

-- 
Nick

Re: [GNU-Emacs] request: better subject lines

[Emanuel Berg]

Nick Dokos wrote:

>> I heard of a web interface to it all but
>> never used it and I think that is
>> a common situation.
>
> You are better off then:
>
> If you *had*, you'd be spoilt by it, and you
> would be crying the bitter tears that those
> of us who did are now crying.

Here, are we talking about an "interaction"
interface (composing etc.) or a search
interface, or both?

I *love* the Emacs Gnus interface which is the
same for accessing mail, Usenet and mailing
lists as NNTP newsgroups. Look, here is the
same screenshot once more! [1]

In general I don't like web interfaces (or web
programming) and certainly not when it handles
stuff you use every day.

However *search* might be the exception that
confirms the rule - makes sense, a web
interface to the web, right?

I suppose the reason I never look into or found
the Gmane web archive is I always found the
posts I was looking for thru Google, which led
me to the mailing lists own archives.

But wait, shouldn't that interface be uniform
as well, just as the access points? I suppose,
but it is a somewhat rare case and I'm fine
consuming information with Emacs w3m.
It doesn't have to look exactly the same
every time.

[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/gnus/gnus-group.png

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573