From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs i18n Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:11:36 +0200 Message-ID: <878s20dwmf.fsf@zoho.eu> References: <87lf633wc3.fsf@zoho.eu> <21691570.QVqMGgByyo@galex-713.eu> Reply-To: Emanuel Berg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25756"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:g8vxbFZfm1xGhWOOGmErmDsjHWY= Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 21 08:12:26 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m65Sy-0006Ux-W6 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:12:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54132 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m65Sx-0007Eo-6W for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:12:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40760) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m65SQ-0007DK-MN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:11:50 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:53992) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m65SO-0005ES-FI for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:11:50 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m65SM-0005kU-MT for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:11:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131916 Archived-At: Alexandre Garreau wrote: >> Anglo-American beat French to world dominance, accept it. > > Nobody told in this thread French had any world dominance. > Although you may note that the concern about english is > often raised by french people They are the ONLY people who EVER brings this up. > and maybe for some sort of inconscious nationalism or > rempent national aversion toward english due to that > previous context, the concern stays valid, and you cannot > cancel an argument validity due to the people who raise it. We WANT the French-speaking people, and they are here already as we clearly see, but this isn't the 70s anymore where there were one "expert" on the same subject in every god damned country who had read a couple of 12 books on the subject and wrote a nice summary on in, resembling pretty much exactly what some other dude did in some other country reading his 12 books! The langauge of science and technology IS English, it if had been French I would have written the same thing, only in defense of French - but it _isn't_ French, and everyone understands that - even the French, as we clearly see - but unlike everyone else, the French pretends or do not accept this in some places of their minds, so they bring this up over and over, #$&%@! >> There is no miniature world of computers where everyone >> speaks French or any other language who badly needs >> translations, drop it. > > There is THERE IS NOT, and whatever fraction there is is getting smaller by the day, it isn't a place were you yourself would like to be restricted to, so why ever would you like that for your compatriots that are, BTW, fully capable of learning English just like everyone else? In fact, the French language is much closer to English than a lot of other languages, there is no disadvantage at all in any sense or in anyway, and we see this every day when we speak English to people from the French-speaking world! > not only in france, but any non-germanic place I have been > through. English, just like french, is a difficult language No, because of popular culture, technology, and proximity of languages it is very easy for anyone these days to learn English, if the have any ambitions whatsoever with science and technology they already know English before they even enter the university? > with lot of vocabulary. You’re living is a small-world > utopia that’s nowhere near even realistic. We live in the same world of science and technology where the language is English, maybe it made sense in the 70-80s to translate the man pages or whatever (the French were the only ones who got close BTW, that said French programmers today are typically _not_ using that old, incomplete, un-updated stuff were you have to wonder - even if it was perfect, which it is not and cannot be, so no disrespect to the translators - even it if was perfect they'd still have to wonder about what everything is, what is interface, hash algorithm, API, proxy, client-server, raster, shading langauge, checksum, compression with the use of tagged chunks, Alice and Bob in French? why aren't the English-language software options congruent with ... wait, what terms are we using, even? The French or the English? (Oh, I know Alice and Bob - Abelard et Héloïse, n'est-ce pas?) > Even those who *fluently* speak english are commonly *tired* > with it. No, that is true only in the initial, beginner phase, then on the contrary one gets tired of reading it in a language that is _foreign_ to it, the _native_ language is always the best and the native language in the science and technology world is English, US English in particular. > Even I, and actually anybody because that’s natural, would > choose to read something in their native(s) language(s) > rather than a foreign one English isn't foreign here, it is the native language of the field. > Just to be sure, you’re a native speaker of english right? Hahaha :) Are you kidding, I'm Swedish! That said, these rantings are to be put on my account solely, I'm sure many of my countrymen who reads this thinks I'm insane or something... ha :) > or have you tried to work in mandarin This instant, in another buffer I have a friend on IRC from ROC and he speaks better English than me (he thinks that at least :)) and I was a CS student when Sweden offered courses free of charge (now they do that only to EU contrives) so every course, taught in English, was like 50% people from China! I lived in a student house for 7 years with a configuration of Chinese people ALWAYS present at one time or the other, EVERYONE spoke English, all the books were in English, exams were in English, the Chinese guys were sometimes a weird bunch to deal with on an everyday basis but the problem was _never_ their or mine or anyone else's (certainly not the French who were also there, but in much smaller numbers) NO ONE had any problem whatsoever with the English, trust me! > on the ground that its syntax is said to be simple and > flexionless, to say it’s as easy as in your native language? I'm not saying I or anyone else is as good with English as we are with our own languages, except for when speaking of one thing - technology. The language is of course not perfect, how could it ever be, but it is "good enough for government work", good enough for the intended purpose. (I don't think my English as in English in general is that good actually, maybe my ROC friend is right.) > otherwise, do you have studies showing the opposite? We don't need studies, we have something stronger, reality. > There are everywhere teachings of CS in english *as > a special matter*, that’s a way to *train* for english > because that training is *needed* because it is nonnatural, > and it is a difficulty and people try lowering it by > confronting to it... yet most of courses are in the national > language, not english. Not here. But that's OK, I'm not saying all universities that teach technology must necessarily do everything in English this very instant. But that's were we are heading anyway. In the 70s everyone wrote their PhDs in their own languages. Now people even write their BSc in English. There will only be more and more of this and that's a good thing. Those who don't will be at a disadvantage. Those who do not know _any_ English will be at such a disadvantage they won't be able to contribute or acquire information in a way that make them even belong, sorry. > Some vocabulary obviously comes from english, and > englishisms are present more often than not, but the > grammar, phonology, orthography, syntax, and most of > vocabulary we use stay our national (or even sometimes, with > luck (that means not in france) the local one) language. Yes, of course, but it isn't about that, it is about English as a tool to communicate about technology, it isn't about the beauty of the language, I'm sure some of the things I write would make a Grammar School teacher blush, but that's OK, it is at this point unavoidable and perhaps that will always be like that, even, but even now and long before I write this people have collaborated on zillion projects speaking English - and French and Russian also, and Swedish even - only these languages didn't make it to the #1 position that English has, right here and right now - so instead of translating, if you want to help "your" people (not necessary IMO, but OK) what you should do is became English _teachers_, not translators, and teach the very, very rare technology GENIUS who can do EVERYTHING with a keyboard but cannot speak or write a word of English - I don't believe these people exist in their miniature worlds consisting of themselves and equally language-blind friends hacking the Pentagon and Fort Knox - but if you find them, YES, do us all a favor and tech them English so we all can be helped by their marvelous work, and maybe help them a bit as well hehe :) > emacs is only for programmers and CS-ists Yes, but it is much, much broader than that, you don't have to be a programmer, it is enough to have a smartphone and smart-TV and god damn computer, this has already contributed A LOT to how people speak English, Germans at 20 for example speak much better English than I did, when I was 20 (and then I thought Germans couldn't speak English at all, maybe), so NO, it is not necessary for you to be an Emacs user or programmer, everyone that uses technology is benefited tremendously for knowing English and it works both ways, technology makes you better at English (ordinary English, between humans) as well, because English is not the langauge of just nations like the US, England <3, Australia <3 and so on, it is also the language of TECHNOLOGY, so make people COME, don't work on things that will make them NOT COME @%&#$! > That would be the kind of "user-friendliness", btw, that may > have an effective impact on making more women or minorities > join CS, and moreover less occidental, as that concern has > come more into fashion recently. Women are already almost 100% binary and they are better at communicating than men some would say so they would have no problem because of the English language to join the tech world and if we take a look on reality this has been the case for as long as I don't know. As for minorities that have historically had a position of disadvantage the more technology and the more English to them the better! PS. ha :) stop it... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal