From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tassilo Horn Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs Book Vs Emacs Manuals Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 17:41:24 +0200 Message-ID: <876183t6u3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87fv77barj.fsf@gnu.org> <87zj5fgpd8.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87a8xft9ra.fsf@gnu.org> <87fv77gl6m.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1431099717 2583 80.91.229.3 (8 May 2015 15:41:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 15:41:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 08 17:41:47 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YqkPJ-0000jW-Rr for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 17:41:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56381 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YqkPJ-0005kd-AX for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 11:41:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41703) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YqkP7-0005jN-0W for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 11:41:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YqkP2-0007El-F9 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 11:41:32 -0400 Original-Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.28]:44543) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YqkP2-0007Eh-C1 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 11:41:28 -0400 Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B4220761 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 11:41:28 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 May 2015 11:41:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=7u1YOADQVFsSoYQsaPKc88j0HDw=; b=uyvK0 oHf0lofatDKOnYqb9+83U6BJdoDcJcKtS5Tk7Wm6JLnkXJuGRvpERtwkp0EhEZ3f FHYSWhhUk1KQOyc9NTPCeLGay4Dke7l/Hy2yPPIjzURopmSdw1p5JAhVcJNnyPTk EFO+OGlhGS6COefJJU1bxnQqZv+KY76Z9esrRM= X-Sasl-enc: Njvq5wnlvDIrR9NtdO6NV+V/jE9JjKQWpJnYVmdeLN/y 1431099687 Original-Received: from thinkpad-t440p (unknown [2.163.1.200]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BE294C0001D; Fri, 8 May 2015 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Mail-Followup-To: phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord), help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <87fv77gl6m.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> (Phillip Lord's message of "Fri, 08 May 2015 16:09:53 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 66.111.4.28 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:104303 Archived-At: phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord) writes: > After that, it starts talking about Windows which, of course, are not > windows. Maybe with Emacs 30, we'll replace frame by window, and window by pane. :-) > It's very off-putting. I didn't realise this till, of course, till I > watched on of my students fight with it. When I started using emacs about a decade ago (as a student as well), I didn't have problems accepting that emacs is different to what I've been used to (KDE's Kate at that time). I was just prepared to do whatever it takes to get that Gnus running! >> Yes, and the tutorial also states that you can use the arrow keys or >> the mouse for scrolling/moving point. Ok, not at prominent >> positions. But if the tutorial started with "you can use emacs like >> notepad" then users would immediately pick up the habit of using >> emacs like notepad. > > If users move the cursor in Emacs the same way at they do in notepad, > that's fine by me. It's not completely wrong of course but once you've got used to the "normal" movement bindings, it's easy to go from character-based motion to word- or sexp-based motion. >>> There are other introductions out there, and one of the needs to be >>> integrated into Emacs. >> >> Out of interest, which ones? > > This one has some funky pictures of the basic GUI elements. > > http://www.jesshamrick.com/2012/09/10/absolute-beginners-guide-to-emacs/ Indeed, that's pretty nice. The only thing I didn't like skimming over it is that it calls the mode-line status-bar. Using the emacs term is better because if you know it, you can use the help more effectively. And the kill/yanking section is a bit weird. It says `M-y' would replace the current yank with the next from the kill-ring but that's actually the previous. And it advertises a keybinding `M-Y' which would reverse the yank direction wrt. the kill-ring. I suspect the author's using some extension (maybe undo-tree?) without being aware of that. So there's a very high chance the novice won't be able to reproduce what she's reading. > This one is quite nice. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6jfrrwR10k The problem with that (except that it's a video) is that it shows a highly customized emacs, not the one the newbie's currently sitting in front of. > Basically, anything that doesn't start off with keybindings would be > good for me. They can come later. "To move the cursor to the next character, simply do M-x forward-char RET. Yes, it's really that easy!" ;-) Ok, ok, M-x is a keybinding, too. But the tutorial you've cited first also starts with key bindings. Bye, Tassilo