From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Morally equivalent Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:39:49 +0800 Message-ID: <875yghdfd6.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87y1tfzhzm.fsf@undisclosedlocation.com> <877d0zfjqa.fsf@web.de> <87pmer9hrn.fsf@disroot.org> <83zgdv2bls.fsf@gnu.org> <87h7029c7f.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16799"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 18 04:41:39 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1okcXz-0004Di-9g for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 04:41:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50712 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okcXy-0003az-13 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 22:41:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okcWT-0003Y8-W2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 22:40:06 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic301-30.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.199]:46215) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okcWS-0001Jw-A9 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 22:40:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1666060800; bh=rkthi2q9Yo0OTf3XCz2Oxa54g5w2FONKRnOK7/75oIA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=kREyuvuSEH5myhD1NfsY7AvGjQVmLed1Bgra2xIm2aGAKoOgTzQdKN9bCh49ZawNPvp6wtEgAGKps9Dn5FvhhpOE9SY00q+4vPuf324ZEXsg+dEeWxFK8aU6+0KAfBqeShhUoYAwcbXhCVtpaUKOqm0GHREazdHbQO/8h2CDKGSogK11ap3oBylV2TD5KOZ26nS8D0Neqh/wnPbGrKWHbl8cBzRhPwZqy4rhYOiHGxTSOhtdgEg75pNmxX8c4ZnPMNVe2S06RvPPEg42rThJpHjET7wSAx4oLS4KeXiwKKdkwxWRzZPBoakXiLverpH5ZuOLh2+gG8o0UGGityJ59A== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1666060800; bh=sIHacKEa/uRUULgg7qkfSlUtTC2Tw2CA53GBofRk3Jm=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=nZYdvx019zua1Q/4esXwiX1j0RkSSJaBrCw07neiJy72rMS1gbzYVJsGEpaFe2t0UX5IZpQLVMCONmNOPHLWcG9mYLDOOULU+m6nJMG41cxdbPPYsXGMe5eauFvOw/8WNMWbw2lN1FIqMXazeyDfyXTIakOT++EHkBzUc80VsROJdQGNjVg/1vCCW86/lhEdCCXnWEavvOrdL64wDeOtIaZLTcrERFo+XumkrDORQ298Orb72jGAdtq2m/061X5e9ZZrOk1PnB+eMf6r8ceOdA/dAoOaCwrue38/q4UzlYrBUsy/HapHTs7774L0B2wVqe3MaiQMO6HbXUxuWc8Yig== X-YMail-OSG: 8c3ZdyEVM1klXQV0ZumrqWkR5cTkb3bnms2kb98SnaKIdt0e_kFpuK3JBZ.sJXG EIpOBdXyfD0.4yPeLTWnsEQa4L8zFU5Fpp78Jc.t26rPivLDDhWjvLWmqyogl2klQH6x4NUc60bV rjJi3YhgQphX9pYLXWcU6XSiO2EwzOkrAdXHIyGWiEVTpQU72sYvRBSIAtY4WnkMpa4Vx8i119Vo 2yunlnSLBDPjqla3j9YM_M3KhUtd8fBHO5ouebAEZwk3zZB.3cJOxrt7HmuiAg68AWvzPYsdA_jP wykgpVESJMojjdOHPlNrfLqxRhbCbx7yYxbYA7kryubOS1KvnlM0sIDVFlDeUgm1SPvs3Bprr0SG nnSyeIczmH6P6L67Gg0lBzqqcGn6lUgZZBuxZKvyzhqq4pBHIzhjJyY_Waut9VgEOeGQKqtVRo1A Rrs_aJ5ZjKpzJu7EMVK2L4U2HijZ3yCu4SXr6.jmjilnsK8dJS.rcnhRZGhHE9BooJE9_3rixH9g B9FzjrGVrYBcfy9WUDK0k6av02BOKJ8XN4WLCDE00hHJsfxrEKmJf9qDNNHWczYdy8JzeNBnLCFX 7EJ8Eek4q9A_Y6V290MXVsWKoPO6xSKvlfrn4I2R_EkZkfz7xousOmFgpEq9eAEg2ukqz1gadriR cyVjyMbFsFqILlNlq5YnRurqiGFIMJd1UXb6yu41VPx1KrCpvlcr3vvJ4qEHiayDTD8bhzSUD5Jx xlxChwDGt2ZBh4F6TGWMCdtcnhz0oMTKbS2rVHp4QzMTGlAWEM5NLwr6wBqUAAoBAyVwIS90gJwM GZWCx_of5HPadIZGwYLcpRXMmOkFmk7S10WAOOyEtl X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 02:40:00 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-785466d859-8t5fd (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 98d36cc0832830dd10e98f49a1187d15; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 02:39:54 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87h7029c7f.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Tue, 18 Oct 2022 03:01:40 +0200") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.184.199; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic301-30.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:140107 Archived-At: Michael Heerdegen writes: > Thibaut Verron writes: > >> It's not rigorously true, because the outcome will be different if >> evaluating PLACE has side effects. But imo this is such an outlandish >> scenario (if it can even happen in the first place) that it doesn't need to >> be the primary focus of the docstring of push. > > Good point. It's just about an implementation detail. In other > docstrings we just say "equivalent but produces slightly more efficient > code" or simply "equivalent". > > Or has anyone ever used a place expression (whose getter) has side > effects? Relying on that would probably uncover one hundred and five > bugs. > > So - to lead this to some end - is there someone not agreeing that we > could just say "equivalent"? > > Micheal. The meaning of "morally equivalent" is quite obvious. If not immediately, then from context. How did a simple phrase generate so much noise on this list?