From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: if vs. when vs. and: style question Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:47:24 +0100 Organization: Informatimago Message-ID: <874mp5z3tv.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> References: <87sicvwckx.fsf@wmi.amu.edu.pl> <87wq27yvqg.fsf@debian.uxu> <8d531e99-7260-4263-ac99-09c6871e2708@googlegroups.com> <87vbhq53lf.fsf@debian.uxu> <828c5115-a61b-4c42-b6d5-7bdcc6a691f0@googlegroups.com> <87bnjf8enq.fsf@debian.uxu> <877fu2t9l0.fsf@debian.uxu> <87d23uyrt7.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <3a1c3c18-0a6f-4b1a-8402-42ee2f286dd8@googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1427547648 32429 80.91.229.3 (28 Mar 2015 13:00:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:00:48 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 28 14:00:34 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YbqLg-0003DM-0Y for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Mar 2015 14:00:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53783 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YbqLf-0005Ol-Bl for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Mar 2015 09:00:23 -0400 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 73 Original-X-Trace: individual.net iSqs/i1ntbp/4tJfD42I2wCBM5pVTdJpULWXWMlfQDGF1fmtOI Cancel-Lock: sha1:MGVhYzM5ODJiNjAyYTI1NGQwMTkyYzNjYmQ0ZDlmOTdkZTViZGU0Zg== sha1:M+RKmRIHRWRjyiYGSHwVWFureL0= Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAQMAAABtzGvEAAAABlBMVEUAAAD///+l2Z/dAAAA oElEQVR4nK3OsRHCMAwF0O8YQufUNIQRGIAja9CxSA55AxZgFO4coMgYrEDDQZWPIlNAjwq9 033pbOBPtbXuB6PKNBn5gZkhGa86Z4x2wE67O+06WxGD/HCOGR0deY3f9Ijwwt7rNGNf6Oac l/GuZTF1wFGKiYYHKSFAkjIo1b6sCYS1sVmFhhhahKQssRjRT90ITWUk6vvK3RsPGs+M1RuR mV+hO/VvFAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Accept-Language: fr, es, en User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:211131 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:103413 Archived-At: Rusi writes: > On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 4:32:46 AM UTC+5:30, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote: >> Emanuel Berg writes: >> >> > Hey... Why don't you Unicode and FP lovers do a new >> > editor called "Uhacs" (for Unicode, Haskell, and >> > Emacs) - the best thing with this editor is the >> > development time, which is actually zero. Because when >> > you start working on it, the result is a side-effect, >> > which is intolerable by definition, so you have to >> > stop :) Wait... oups, I did it again! But that joke >> > wasn't rude, was it? Rather, it is funny because it is >> > true :) >> >> Well, yes and no. >> >> That is, you can make the joke about purely functional systems running >> on Von Neuman archiectures, where anything is done only with side >> effects. > > "Functional" has been a rather moving target in the last 50 years: > > Recently came across this interview of John McCarthy > http://www.infoq.com/interviews/Steele-Interviews-John-McCarthy > > In the 1st question he says he learnt functional programming from Backus' > Fortran. Even to someone who is a bit of an old-timer like myself, this view > is amazing. Younger kids dont even get how shocking is being said here: > When I mentioned this on the Haskell list someone (only) connected it with > Backus' Turing award lecture. > > Whereas if one reads the Turing award lecture, clearly Backus is doing penitence > for the 'sin' of inventing Fortran, 20 years after the invention. > > And yet one needs to admit that in 1957 Fortran was a functional language -- > the very name carries that intention. > By 1977 that stand needed a very public withdrawal. > > And so in summary: > In 1957 For(mula Tran(slator) was the (one and only) functional language > 1960 Lisp > 60s Lisp+APL > 70s ML, Also 'theoretical languages' like ISWIM > 80s Lazy languages FPLs like SASL, KRC, Miranda start appearing > While the landmark SICP is from 80s, we also have the beginning rumbles saying > Lisp has retarded the progress of functional programming and CS education > by 10 years [David Turner, Phil Wadler] > [Interestingly it appears that in the late 80s McCarthy said Lisp was not > functional] > 90s Haskell > This century: Some unexpected resurgence of Lisp as functional -- CLojure > > I am ready to bet that 20 years from now Haskell wont be regarded as a > properly functional language. > > Beginning rumbles: Bob Harper's Haskell is exceptionally unsafe > > [Seems to be removed, heres an archive version > https://web.archive.org/web/20150102135555/https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/haskell-is-exceptionally-unsafe/ > ] Ah good. So I guess I can avoid learning Haskell, I'll wait for the next stable functional language. In the meantime lisp goes strong as it has for more than 56 years. I'll stay with lisp. :-) -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ “The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk