Indentation with spaces

Indentation with spaces

[goncholden via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

When using indentation, emacs uses tabs at the front. Can spaces be used instead, and is it a good thing to do?

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Skip Montanaro]

> When using indentation, emacs uses tabs at the front. Can spaces be used
instead, and is it a good thing to do?

Check the docs for indent-tabs-mode. When nil, spaces will be used instead
of tabs.

Skip Montanaro

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 10:52 AM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:


> > When using indentation, emacs uses tabs at the front. Can spaces be used
>
> instead, and is it a good thing to do?
>
> Check the docs for indent-tabs-mode. When nil, spaces will be used instead
> of tabs.
>
> Skip Montanaro

Have written the following function, but tabs and trailing spaces are not being highlighted.  For some reason, hitting the tab key does not introduce a tab.

(defun indent-tabs ()
  "TODO"

  (setq custom-tab-width 2)
  (setq whitespace-style '(face tabs tab-mark trailing))
  (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)

  (custom-set-faces
     '(whitespace-tab ((t (:background "#636363")))))
)

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Skip Montanaro]

> Have written the following function, but tabs and trailing spaces are not being highlighted.  For some reason, hitting the tab key does not introduce a tab.
>
>
> (defun indent-tabs ()
>   "TODO"
>
>   (setq custom-tab-width 2)
>   (setq whitespace-style '(face tabs tab-mark trailing))
>   (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
>
>   (custom-set-faces
>      '(whitespace-tab ((t (:background "#636363")))))
> )
>

I'm no whiz with highlighting things. You could say I'm a face dunce.
I let the major mode do that. I'm rarely dissatisfied enough with its
settings to investigate a change in behavior. As for TAB not inserting
a literal TAB character, indentation is controlled by the major mode.
I believe that for ELisp, the default indentation is just two spaces.
(Don't quote me on that though.)

Skip

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Skip Montanaro wrote:

> As for TAB not inserting a literal TAB character,
> indentation is controlled by the major mode. I believe that
> for ELisp, the default indentation is just two spaces.
> (Don't quote me on that though.)

Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
be used.

Anyway here is how I do it:

;;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*-
;;
;; this file:
;;   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/tabs.el

(defun untab-all ()
  (unless (member major-mode '(makefile-gmake-mode
                               makefile-mode) ) ; exceptions
    (untabify (point-min) (point-max)))
  nil) ; "did not write buffer to disk"

(setq-default tab-width 3)

(setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)

(provide 'tabs)

And then

;; (setq before-save-hook nil)
(defun before-save-hook-f ()
  (untab-all)
  (delete-trailing-whitespace) )
(add-hook 'before-save-hook #'before-save-hook-f)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 3:08 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Skip Montanaro wrote:
>
> > As for TAB not inserting a literal TAB character,
> > indentation is controlled by the major mode. I believe that
> > for ELisp, the default indentation is just two spaces.
> > (Don't quote me on that though.)
>
>
> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> be used.

I agree and found it very annoying.  Could one request a change?


> Anyway here is how I do it:
>
> ;;; -- lexical-binding: t --
> ;;
> ;; this file:
> ;; https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/tabs.el
>
> (defun untab-all ()
> (unless (member major-mode '(makefile-gmake-mode
> makefile-mode) ) ; exceptions
> (untabify (point-min) (point-max)))
> nil) ; "did not write buffer to disk"
>
> (setq-default tab-width 3)
>
> (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
>
> (provide 'tabs)
>
> And then
>
> ;; (setq before-save-hook nil)
> (defun before-save-hook-f ()
> (untab-all)
> (delete-trailing-whitespace) )
> (add-hook 'before-save-hook #'before-save-hook-f)
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholden wrote:

> I agree and found it very annoying. Could one request
> a change?

One can with `report-emacs-bug' but I think they will just say
use

  (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:40:38 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: goncholden via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
>  <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> For some reason, hitting the tab key does not introduce a tab.

By default, TAB indents in many major modes, so use "C-q TAB" to
insert a literal TAB character.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Skip Montanaro]

> > As for TAB not inserting a literal TAB character,
> > indentation is controlled by the major mode. I believe that
> > for ELisp, the default indentation is just two spaces.
> > (Don't quote me on that though.)
>
> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> be used.

We say that today. I've been using some version of Emacs since the
early 1980s. Before the appearance of indentation-sensitive languages
like Python, inserting a literal TAB when the TAB key was pressed made
sense.

I suspect it's a case of "old habits die hard."

Skip

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

One should make it easy for users rather than considering workarounds as solutions.

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 3:17 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> goncholden wrote:
>
> > I agree and found it very annoying. Could one request
> > a change?
>
>
> One can with `report-emacs-bug' but I think they will just say
> use
>
> (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 9:51 PM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:


> > > As for TAB not inserting a literal TAB character,
> > > indentation is controlled by the major mode. I believe that
> > > for ELisp, the default indentation is just two spaces.
> > > (Don't quote me on that though.)
> >
> > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> > be used.
>
>
> We say that today. I've been using some version of Emacs since the
> early 1980s. Before the appearance of indentation-sensitive languages
> like Python, inserting a literal TAB when the TAB key was pressed made
> sense.
>
> I suspect it's a case of "old habits die hard."
>
> Skip

Python is garbage as far as I am concerned.  The designers thought it would be neat to give semantic meaning to whitespace. Why on earth would they give semantic meaning to something that cannot be seen? Who thought that was a good idea?

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> be used.

What is the problem with using tabs for indentation?
I use them to indent both C-like languages and Emacs Lisp.

At my day job, we prefer to indent code with tabs as well.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 9:51 PM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:


> > > As for TAB not inserting a literal TAB character,
> > > indentation is controlled by the major mode. I believe that
> > > for ELisp, the default indentation is just two spaces.
> > > (Don't quote me on that though.)
> >
> > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> > be used.
>
>
> We say that today. I've been using some version of Emacs since the
> early 1980s. Before the appearance of indentation-sensitive languages
> like Python, inserting a literal TAB when the TAB key was pressed made
> sense.
>
> I suspect it's a case of "old habits die hard."

Quite right and unfortunate Skip.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 1:37 AM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 9:51 PM, Skip Montanaro skip.montanaro@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > As for TAB not inserting a literal TAB character,
> > > > indentation is controlled by the major mode. I believe that
> > > > for ELisp, the default indentation is just two spaces.
> > > > (Don't quote me on that though.)
> > >
> > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> > > be used.
> >
> > We say that today. I've been using some version of Emacs since the
> > early 1980s. Before the appearance of indentation-sensitive languages
> > like Python, inserting a literal TAB when the TAB key was pressed made
> > sense.
> >
> > I suspect it's a case of "old habits die hard."
>
>
> Quite right and unfortunate Skip.

Is there a way to show a symbol delineating the location and number of tabs?

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

It is not wrong to use tabs but creates problems as most tabs and trailing
spaces in emacs cannot be seen or easily displayed.  There is also the problem
that things could look different on other people’s computers.  It is a shame
than proposing a change makes a flame war, as consistency should be the preferred
choice.


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 1:27 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> Emanuel Berg incal@dataswamp.org writes:
>
> > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> > be used.
>
>
> What is the problem with using tabs for indentation?
> I use them to indent both C-like languages and Emacs Lisp.
>
> At my day job, we prefer to indent code with tabs as well.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[tomas]

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On Thu, Jun 09, 2022 at 01:49:10PM +0000, goncholden wrote:

[...]

> Is there a way to show a symbol delineating the location and number of tabs?

I think you are looking for whitespace-mode. It has all of
that and then some (try M-x whitespace-toggle-options to
get an impression)

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: Indentation with spaces

[Lele Gaifax]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> Why on earth would they give semantic meaning to something that cannot
> be seen?

Youshouldtalktoyouroculistaboutthat!
-- 
nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri
real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia.
lele@metapensiero.it  |                 -- Fortunato Depero, 1929.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used.

The world is split between 3 factions:
- those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
- those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the use of SPC instead of
  TAB to indent.
- those users who have a life.


        Stefan

RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Drew Adams]

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> > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used.
> 
> The world is split between 3 factions:
> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the use of SPC instead of
>   TAB to indent.
> - those users who have a life.
>         Stefan

Hooray!  If the closed-world hypothesis applies
then I can now say I have a life!

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RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 8:16 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:


> > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used.
> >
> > The world is split between 3 factions:
> > - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
> > - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the use of SPC instead of
> > TAB to indent.
> > - those users who have a life.
> > Stefan
>
>
> Hooray! If the closed-world hypothesis applies
> then I can now say I have a life!

The biggest problem is not allowing indentation with spaces but letting the tab key introduce tabs.  I work with many legacy work and would like tabs and spaces displayed.

So it is not that I cannot tolerate tabs or spaces.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Skip Montanaro wrote:

>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
>> be used.
>
> We say that today. I've been using some version of Emacs
> since the early 1980s. Before the appearance of
> indentation-sensitive languages like Python a literal TAB
> when the TAB key was pressed made sense.

Okay, why is that?

I have written some Python and while I don't like the
"indentation sensitiveness" the discussion can go both ways and
it's up to them to decide what to do with their language.

But how does that influence anything and in particular
other languages?

And besides I have spaces in my Python as well:

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/sth/sth.py

Just like in Lisp:

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/comic-book-insult.el

The only exception is makefiles

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile

That I always thought was because that make(1) (GNU make)
program explicitely looked for TABs so in that case it was
enforced. I never asked why and didn't think about finding out
either, some leftover from the dinosaur age probable that one
just accepted ...

Explain please ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholden wrote:

> Python is garbage as far as I am concerned.

It doesn't look or feel cool like Lisp but development is
super-fast. I think an experienced Lisp programmer writes the
typical program in slightly more time than a Python
novice does.

It's the langauge itself, but also all the resources on the
web and everywhere else including source, Q&As, books, you
name it ... because of its popularity.

I think for these and other reasons it's better than shell
scripts (it's interactive, or can be) and it's much less of
a learning curve (and again faster development) compared to
Perl and other comparable languages for comparable
applications and use cases that I know of.

Lisp is cooler, looks better and might be more powerful in
terms of the language's expressiveness, other than those things
(which are important, no doubt) I think Python would win most
other Progralympic disciplines vs Lisp ... TBH!

> The designers thought it would be neat to give semantic
> meaning to whitespace. Why on earth would they give semantic
> meaning to something that cannot be seen? Who thought that
> was a good idea?

It makes the code uniform from person to person in a way that
makes sense (in one particular "sense", the enforced one, but
still) - there are advantages with this both reading, writing
and understanding - advantages related not the least to what
I just mentioned, Python's one killer advantage, the
development speed.

Trust me, I wrote a Python bot which is employed as we speak
working well and not crashing, and I did this very fast
knowing nothing about Python and even less about IRC. It just
happens with Python ... somehow.

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/#sth

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholden wrote:

> One should make it easy for users rather than considering
> workarounds as solutions.

This theme and others will be explored in the upcoming
Hollywood movie "The Curse of Emacs" ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholden wrote:

> number of tabs?

Here are two		tab chars.

Then eval:

  (how-many "\t" (point-min))

Gotta love it :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
>> be used.
>
> What is the problem with using tabs for indentation? I use
> them to indent both C-like languages and Emacs Lisp.
>
> At my day job, we prefer to indent code with tabs as well.

It's lame, inexact typewriter stuff. Try arrange output data
from some shell tool with tabs and see how robust it'll be.

As for source you can't align with any hope of precision since
some other dude will have another tab width setting, so then
he will arrange it the way he thinks it should look, and this
"change" to the source rings all the little bells and so
on ...

And there is no reason to do, it so at best it gets more
complicated for parsers and stuff for no good reason.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholden wrote:

> It is not wrong to use tabs

It's not encouraged ...

> but creates problems as most tabs and trailing spaces in
> emacs cannot be seen or easily displayed. There is also the
> problem that things could look different on other people’s
> computers.

That's exactly right.

> It is a shame than proposing a change makes a flame war, as
> consistency should be the preferred choice.

It's an embarrassment to the sport. Can't just people see that
we are right and accept it? Especially when it's so obvious
I mean.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

reinventing the wheel but not faculty, libraries (was: Re: Indentation with spaces)

[Emanuel Berg]

Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:

>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
>> be used.
>
> The world is split between 3 factions:
> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the use of SPC instead of
>   TAB to indent.
> - those users who have a life.

I want official libraries with all small functions that don't
change and that are possible to do in what would amount to an
optimal way.

We could start with a math library with stuff like this that
I wrote just a couple of days ago.

(defun faculty (n)
  (if (> n 1)
      (* n (faculty (1- n)))
    1))
;; (faculty  5) ;       120
;; (faculty 10) ; 3 628 800

(defun cl-faculty (n)
  (cl-loop with prod = 1
    for i from 2 to n do
    (setq prod (* i prod))
    finally return prod) )
;; (cl-faculty  5) ;       120
;; (cl-faculty 10) ; 3 628 800

People say they don't want to reinvent the wheel. But that's
wrong, that should actually be encouraged! You know how many
wheels there are in industry, construction, transport, etc?
They are the products of engineering and I'm sure in 100 years
so many of them will have been improved, adapted, applied in
new settings and so on compared to now.

But math function and other simple but basic so very
fundamental building blocks of software ... we should have
killer libraries for that and in 100 years it'll be there for
their convenience on whatever Lisp dialect they'll run so they
can focus on improving the WHEELS!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholden wrote:

> Python is garbage as far as I am concerned.

It doesn't look or feel cool like Lisp but development is
super-fast. I think an experienced Lisp programmer writes the
typical program in slightly more time than a Python
novice does.

It's the langauge itself, but also all the resources on the
web and everywhere else including source, Q&As, books, you
name it ... because of its popularity.

I think for these and other reasons it's better than shell
scripts (it's interactive, or can be) and it's much less of
a learning curve (and again faster development) compared to
Perl and other comparable languages for comparable
applications and use cases that I know of.

Lisp is cooler, looks better and might be more powerful in
terms of the language's expressiveness, other than those things
(which are important, no doubt) I think Python would win most
other Progralympic disciplines vs Lisp ... TBH!

> The designers thought it would be neat to give semantic
> meaning to whitespace. Why on earth would they give semantic
> meaning to something that cannot be seen? Who thought that
> was a good idea?

It makes the code uniform from person to person in a way that
makes sense (in one particular "sense", the enforced one, but
still) - there are advantages with this both reading, writing
and understanding - advantages related not the least to what
I just mentioned, Python's one killer advantage, the
development speed.

Trust me, I wrote a Python bot which is employed as we speak
working well and not crashing, and I did this very fast
knowing nothing about Python and even less about IRC. It just
happens with Python ... somehow.

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/#sth

--
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> It's lame, inexact typewriter stuff. Try arrange output data
> from some shell tool with tabs and see how robust it'll be.

Where did I say people should use tabs to print data?

> As for source you can't align with any hope of precision since
> some other dude will have another tab width setting, so then
> he will arrange it the way he thinks it should look, and this
> "change" to the source rings all the little bells and so
> on ...

We have a single tab width setting for all code.  And it's very easy to
put `tab-width' in the local variables section of a file.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 9:45 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Skip Montanaro wrote:
>
> > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> > > be used.
> >
> > We say that today. I've been using some version of Emacs
> > since the early 1980s. Before the appearance of
> > indentation-sensitive languages like Python a literal TAB
> > when the TAB key was pressed made sense.
>
>
> Okay, why is that?
>
> I have written some Python and while I don't like the
> "indentation sensitiveness" the discussion can go both ways and
> it's up to them to decide what to do with their language.

They are idiots turning others into idiots like them.

> But how does that influence anything and in particular
> other languages?
>
> And besides I have spaces in my Python as well:
>
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/sth/sth.py
>
> Just like in Lisp:
>
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/comic-book-insult.el
>
> The only exception is makefiles
>
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile
>
> That I always thought was because that make(1) (GNU make)
> program explicitely looked for TABs so in that case it was
> enforced. I never asked why and didn't think about finding out
> either, some leftover from the dinosaur age probable that one
> just accepted ...
>
> Explain please ...
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[tomas]

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On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 05:57:06PM +0000, goncholden wrote:

[...]

> They are idiots turning others into idiots like them.

*plonk*

-- 
t

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Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 6:08 AM, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:


> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 05:57:06PM +0000, goncholden wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > They are idiots turning others into idiots like them.
>
>
> plonk
>
> --
> t

Tomas, one should not give semantic meaning to spaces.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 11:35 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> Emanuel Berg incal@dataswamp.org writes:
>
> > It's lame, inexact typewriter stuff. Try arrange output data
> > from some shell tool with tabs and see how robust it'll be.
>
>
> Where did I say people should use tabs to print data?

In principle that should work but because tab widths are not a consistent measure directly related to spaces (although being defined that way), they cannot be reliably relied upon.

They were introduced as a matter of convenience.  This has substantially changed with the introduction of proportional fonts.

> > As for source you can't align with any hope of precision since
> > some other dude will have another tab width setting, so then
> > he will arrange it the way he thinks it should look, and this
> > "change" to the source rings all the little bells and so
> > on ...
>
>
> We have a single tab width setting for all code. And it's very easy to
> put `tab-width' in the local variables section of a file.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholden wrote:

>> I have written some Python and while I don't like the
>> "indentation sensitiveness" the discussion can go both ways
>> and it's up to them to decide what to do with
>> their language.
>
> They are idiots turning others into idiots like them.

Well, that word ...

But if I say that I must say that Stefan said that certain
people don't have lives. And you can't say that either.

AS for Python obviously I don't agree, I don't agree in
general that certain ways are incorrect, they are engineering
decisions which have pros and cons and some people will take
their project there and other's somethere else. This is not
only completely natural it is also good, good for people and
good for projects. Python specifically is very useful with many
clear advantages, and its success proves it.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

goncholdenwrote:

>> plonk
>
> Tomas, one should not give semantic meaning to spaces.

Youreright,Iupdatedmysignatureandtheattributionlineformat.

-- 
undergroundexpertsunited
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[tomas]

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On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 06:12:03PM +0000, goncholden wrote:
> 
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 6:08 AM, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 05:57:06PM +0000, goncholden wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > They are idiots turning others into idiots like them.
> >
> >
> > plonk
> >
> > --
> > t
> 
> Tomas, one should not give semantic meaning to spaces.

I prefer to not talk to anyone calling others "idiots".
For whatever reason.

-- 
t

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 10:29 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> goncholden wrote:
>
> > Python is garbage as far as I am concerned.
>
>
> It doesn't look or feel cool like Lisp but development is
> super-fast. I think an experienced Lisp programmer writes the
> typical program in slightly more time than a Python
> novice does.
>
> It's the langauge itself, but also all the resources on the
> web and everywhere else including source, Q&As, books, you
> name it ... because of its popularity.
>
> I think for these and other reasons it's better than shell
> scripts (it's interactive, or can be) and it's much less of
> a learning curve (and again faster development) compared to
> Perl and other comparable languages for comparable
> applications and use cases that I know of.
>
> Lisp is cooler, looks better and might be more powerful in
> terms of the language's expressiveness, other than those things
> (which are important, no doubt) I think Python would win most
> other Progralympic disciplines vs Lisp ... TBH!
>
> > The designers thought it would be neat to give semantic
> > meaning to whitespace. Why on earth would they give semantic
> > meaning to something that cannot be seen? Who thought that
> > was a good idea?
>
>
> It makes the code uniform from person to person in a way that
> makes sense (in one particular "sense", the enforced one, but
> still) - there are advantages with this both reading, writing
> and understanding - advantages related not the least to what
> I just mentioned, Python's one killer advantage, the
> development speed.
>
> Trust me, I wrote a Python bot which is employed as we speak
> working well and not crashing, and I did this very fast
> knowing nothing about Python and even less about IRC. It just
> happens with Python ... somehow.

Have coded in Python as well.  But as it has became mainstream, it has the tendency that its design becomes prescriptive to many.

I do not agree that "Simple is better than Complex".  The design concept should be "there is more than one way to do it", rather than Python's "there should be only one way to do it".

For relatively simple tasks with quick solution, some python should do, but I avoid it.

> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/#sth
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 6:33 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> goncholdenwrote:
>
> > > plonk
> >
> > Tomas, one should not give semantic meaning to spaces.
>
>
> Youreright,Iupdatedmysignatureandtheattributionlineformat.

You are just showing an extreme case for me agree about all circumstances.

> --
> undergroundexpertsunited
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

tomas wrote:

> I prefer to not talk to anyone calling others "idiots".
> For whatever reason.

It conveys a super-immature impression, whenever that word
comes up one stops immediately to think/care what is being
said or discussed and instead thinks "okay, so it's _that_
bad?".

But the comment about people not having lives is actually much
worse since it cannot be dispelled that easily so there one is
much more vulnerable. A lot of people actually feel to one
degree or the other they don't have lives, and while that
comments hint at a quite pathetic person, I think that's
a very rare reason for the "not having a life" situation.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 6:53 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> tomas wrote:
>
> > I prefer to not talk to anyone calling others "idiots".
> > For whatever reason.
>
>
> It conveys a super-immature impression, whenever that word
> comes up one stops immediately to think/care what is being
> said or discussed and instead thinks "okay, so it's that
> bad?".
>
> But the comment about people not having lives is actually much
> worse since it cannot be dispelled that easily so there one is
> much more vulnerable. A lot of people actually feel to one
> degree or the other they don't have lives, and while that
> comments hint at a quite pathetic person, I think that's
> a very rare reason for the "not having a life" situation.

Perhaps you missed the class about the differences between Idiot, Intelligent & Genius Person.

> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:05 AM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 6:53 AM, Emanuel Berg incal@dataswamp.org wrote:
>
>
>
> > tomas wrote:
> >
> > > I prefer to not talk to anyone calling others "idiots".
> > > For whatever reason.
> >
> > It conveys a super-immature impression, whenever that word
> > comes up one stops immediately to think/care what is being
> > said or discussed and instead thinks "okay, so it's that
> > bad?".
> >
> > But the comment about people not having lives is actually much
> > worse since it cannot be dispelled that easily so there one is
> > much more vulnerable. A lot of people actually feel to one
> > degree or the other they don't have lives, and while that
> > comments hint at a quite pathetic person, I think that's
> > a very rare reason for the "not having a life" situation.
>
>
> Perhaps you missed the class about the differences between Idiot, Intelligent & Genius Person.

Seriously, if your code cannot run just because of some white spaces.  There are many instances of industrial code that has to be indented in a certain way.  Python would scream bloody murder if it saw that.  Same with GNU make.

I hope they won't introduce different fonts and styles for control structures in the new versions !!!

> > --
> > underground experts united
> > https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

> Where did I say people should use tabs to print data?

I don't know, you said "tabs are very convenient when printing
data" or something?

But what are you printing with them then ... tabs?

>> As for source you can't align with any hope of precision
>> since some other dude will have another tab width setting,
>> so then he will arrange it the way he thinks it should
>> look, and this "change" to the source rings all the little
>> bells and so on ...
>
> We have a single tab width setting for all code. And it's
> very easy to put `tab-width' in the local variables section
> of a file.

Easy but ugly since interface metadata shouldn't clutter
source files ...

And they should do so even less when there is no gain doing so
either, right?

The TAB key on the keyboard is one of my favorite keys and
I often do iteration with that and the so-called backtab which
is S-TAB. See this for ERC which is cool if I may, don't know
if they liked it enough or what happened ...

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/erc/erc-iterate.el

Note that it doesn't iterate the same things! (Type of things.)

B)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 11:01 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Po Lu wrote:
>
> > Where did I say people should use tabs to print data?
>
>
> I don't know, you said "tabs are very convenient when printing
> data" or something?
>
> But what are you printing with them then ... tabs?
>
> > > As for source you can't align with any hope of precision
> > > since some other dude will have another tab width setting,
> > > so then he will arrange it the way he thinks it should
> > > look, and this "change" to the source rings all the little
> > > bells and so on ...
> >
> > We have a single tab width setting for all code. And it's
> > very easy to put `tab-width' in the local variables section
> > of a file.
>
>
> Easy but ugly since interface metadata shouldn't clutter
> source files ...
>
> And they should do so even less when there is no gain doing so
> either, right?
>
> The TAB key on the keyboard is one of my favorite keys and
> I often do iteration with that and the so-called backtab which
> is S-TAB. See this for ERC which is cool if I may, don't know
> if they liked it enough or what happened ...

Yes, but emacs should allow a number of possibilities rather than being prescriptive on its use.  For instance, it does not allow multiple tabs at start of line, which happens with legacy codes (e.g. in fortran).

I suggest a rethinking and the introduction of a set of function that help the setting up of space and tab functionality.

whitespace-mode should also be extended to allow users to set colour hex codes for the various highlighting regions.  For instance, whilst the highlighting of trailing spaces in vibrant, the one used for tabs suffers from a very low contrast ratio.

Efforts should be directed towards applying accessibility measures for which there are actual standards (e.g. WCAG).  One can also use
a colour wheel with equally seperated colours in terms of contrast ratio for increased vibrancy, which is another good measure.

> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/erc/erc-iterate.el
>
> Note that it doesn't iterate the same things! (Type of things.)
>
> B)
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 6:53 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> tomas wrote:
>
> > I prefer to not talk to anyone calling others "idiots".
> > For whatever reason.
>
>
> It conveys a super-immature impression, whenever that word
> comes up one stops immediately to think/care what is being
> said or discussed and instead thinks "okay, so it's that
> bad?".

I was referring to the design of python.  It is more visually appealing and beginner friendly.  But relying on braces and semicolons make the design of algorithms a lot more maintainable, and for big projects much more useful.

Few people truly grasp the way algorithms could be compared.  Many people do not bother, and just focus on an implementation that seems to work, or on algorithms they are most used to and understand.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> They were introduced as a matter of convenience.  This has
> substantially changed with the introduction of proportional fonts.

Who uses proportional fonts in code?

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> I don't know, you said "tabs are very convenient when printing
> data" or something?
>
> But what are you printing with them then ... tabs?

No, I'm indenting code.

> And they should do so even less when there is no gain doing so
> either, right?

The files are smaller, and it is slightly easier to move around
indentation.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 12:57 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > They were introduced as a matter of convenience. This has
> > substantially changed with the introduction of proportional fonts.
>
>
> Who uses proportional fonts in code?


They have already started.  And there are also Elastic Tabstops. With no need to rely on manual alignment.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> They have already started.  And there are also Elastic Tabstops. With
> no need to rely on manual alignment.

Then I guess they aren't popular enough for them to be a problem at
work.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 1:17 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > They have already started. And there are also Elastic Tabstops. With
> > no need to rely on manual alignment.
>
>
> Then I guess they aren't popular enough for them to be a problem at
> work.

Right, they are very niche, but can see the potential.  They can definitely enhance possibilities as has happened with tex if done with great thought.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 1:33 PM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 1:17 PM, Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
> >
> > > They have already started. And there are also Elastic Tabstops. With
> > > no need to rely on manual alignment.
> >
> > Then I guess they aren't popular enough for them to be a problem at
> > work.
>
>
> Right, they are very niche, but can see the potential. They can definitely enhance possibilities as has happened with tex if done with great thought.

I am aware than emacs had dabbled on proportional fonts but not for programming though.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

>> And they should do so even less when there is no gain doing
>> so either, right?
>
> The files are smaller, and it is slightly easier to move
> around indentation.

Nice try :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

> Then I guess they aren't popular enough for them to be
> a problem at work.

Why do tabs even exist? Does that situation or problem apply
today and if so do tabs solve the problem better
than whitespaces?

If not respool to: comp.hist.dustbin

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 1:49 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Po Lu wrote:
>
> > Then I guess they aren't popular enough for them to be
> > a problem at work.
>
>
> Why do tabs even exist? Does that situation or problem apply
> today and if so do tabs solve the problem better
> than whitespaces?

Spaces provide greater flexibility as indentation can change by context rather than using a fixed width for all files.

> If not respool to: comp.hist.dustbin
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:29 PM
> From: "Emanuel Berg" <incal@dataswamp.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Indentation with spaces
>
> goncholden wrote:
>
> > Python is garbage as far as I am concerned.
>
> It doesn't look or feel cool like Lisp but development is
> super-fast. I think an experienced Lisp programmer writes the
> typical program in slightly more time than a Python
> novice does.
>
> It's the langauge itself, but also all the resources on the
> web and everywhere else including source, Q&As, books, you
> name it ... because of its popularity.
>
> I think for these and other reasons it's better than shell
> scripts (it's interactive, or can be) and it's much less of
> a learning curve (and again faster development) compared to
> Perl and other comparable languages for comparable
> applications and use cases that I know of.

Particularly at universities where the pressure is completion
of the work rather than the algorithms themselves.  At very serious
level, I prefer that a program pushes itself as far as it can,
even with errors, but completes.  That is actually a far better
design as far as languages are concerned.

The problem I see, is that many who have used python as their
first language is also their last, with some expecting their
experience should spill over to other languages.

> Lisp is cooler, looks better and might be more powerful in
> terms of the language's expressiveness, other than those things
> (which are important, no doubt) I think Python would win most
> other Progralympic disciplines vs Lisp ... TBH!

Python is slow and does not scale for large projects, so I discard
it.  I rather not see implementations in Python, except as a simple
improvement on scripting.  Although I would prefer the removal of
strict requirements.  Delving through an analysis of algorithms one
would find that grouping braces are indeed needed, as not doing so
does produce ambiguities that cannot be resolved.

With conditions, code becomes an indentation mess.  And you cannot
always split up an algorithm in situations when doing so would result
in an increase in algorithmic complexity.


> > The designers thought it would be neat to give semantic
> > meaning to whitespace. Why on earth would they give semantic
> > meaning to something that cannot be seen? Who thought that
> > was a good idea?
>
> It makes the code uniform from person to person in a way that
> makes sense (in one particular "sense", the enforced one, but
> still) - there are advantages with this both reading, writing
> and understanding - advantages related not the least to what
> I just mentioned, Python's one killer advantage, the
> development speed.

> Trust me, I wrote a Python bot which is employed as we speak
> working well and not crashing, and I did this very fast
> knowing nothing about Python and even less about IRC. It just
> happens with Python ... somehow.

That is fine.  But I get frustrated by many who use python for
whatever they do.  Have seen implementations where building
from source requires extremely experienced developers.  Because
you end up with dependencies that have no end.  See for instance
ObsPy.

I know many programming in Python that find it so enjoyable that
they feel inhibited when working with other programming frameworks.
Universities, particularly science and mathematics departments
frustrate me too much these days.


> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/#sth
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

>>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
>>> be used.
>> 
>> The world is split between 3 factions:
>> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
>> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the use of SPC instead of
>>   TAB to indent.
>> - those users who have a life.
>
> Hooray! If the closed-world hypothesis applies then I can
> now say I have a life!

I don't get it joke but 

  The Closed World Assumption (CWA) is the assumption that
  what is not known to be true must be false. The Open World
  Assumption (OWA) is the opposite. In other words, it is the
  assumption that what is not known to be true is
  simply unknown. [1]

Interesting! OWA seems reasonable but how did they come up
with CWA, when is that useful and what's closed about it,
that you know what you know to be true and every thing else
you then and by that can tell is false. So it's a complete
state of the knowledge sphere, that's what's closed about it?

A closed interval of integers, say [1, 3] means the endpoints
are included, so as a Lisp list that would be '(1 2 3). But an
open or half-open interval, e.g. [1, 3) only includes
everything up to the endpoint but not the actual endpoint, so
that, again [1, 3) would be '(1 2). I don't know, "open" and
"closed"?

Then there is the Open Door Policy - new and old imperial
powers do business with China on equal terms, and in return
they won't disintegrate the whole country and split between
themselves LOL :)

[1] https://www.dataversity.net/introduction-to-open-world-assumption-vs-closed-world-assumption/

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1340 bytes --]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 07:16:26AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Drew Adams wrote:
> 
> >>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> >>> be used.
> >> 
> >> The world is split between 3 factions:
> >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
> >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the use of SPC instead of
> >>   TAB to indent.
> >> - those users who have a life.
> >
> > Hooray! If the closed-world hypothesis applies then I can
> > now say I have a life!
> 
> I don't get it joke but 
> 
>   The Closed World Assumption (CWA) is the assumption that
>   what is not known to be true must be false [...]

This comes from the first serious steps in AI, where "expert
systems" were built Prolog-style: you have a database of "facts"
(basically simple clauses) and inference rules; you ask a
question and the system tries to prove or disprove it. Under
the closed-world assumption (IMO a better name than "hypothesis")
the system can try to prove its contrary, i.e. to pull off
a proof by contradiction. Otherwise, "I don't know" becomes
a possible answer. Just another way to state that you assume
that your facts database is complete. I think the Wikipedia [1]
article explains it pretty well.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-world_assumption
-- 
t

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Particularly at universities where the pressure is
> completion of the work rather than the algorithms
> themselves.

Nope, Lisp is a POWERHOUSE in the university world, not
compared to Python which is big, maybe bigger there as well,
no I mean compared to the Lisp _outside_ the university world
where Lisp is a ... MINIATURE power TOOL in the hands of
a few, very skilled programmers.

One point tho is that people that do the CS thing often think
Lisp is "functional", Lisp is older than the programming
paradigms and besides one can do whatever with Lisp, by all
means including a style that some people will call
functional ...

> At very serious level, I prefer that a program pushes itself
> as far as it can, even with errors, but completes.

??? Programs that have errors don't complete.

> That is actually a far better design as far as languages
> are concerned.

Hahaha :)

> The problem I see, is that many who have used python as
> their first language is also their last, with some expecting
> their experience should spill over to other languages.

Right, that's like the problem with many carpenters these days
with only ONE tool. One would think all that skill with the
hammer would spill over to the knife, for example? But no and
it worries me.

>> Lisp is cooler, looks better and might be more powerful in
>> terms of the language's expressiveness, other than those things
>> (which are important, no doubt) I think Python would win most
>> other Progralympic disciplines vs Lisp ... TBH!
>
> Python is slow

Compared to C++? Why do you think that is?

> and does not scale for large projects

Why not?

> And you cannot always split up an algorithm in situations
> when doing so would result in an increase in
> algorithmic complexity.

:)

> Universities, particularly science and mathematics
> departments frustrate me too much these days.

You don't say! :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

tomas wrote:

> This comes from the first serious steps in AI, where "expert
> systems" were built Prolog-style: you have a database of
> "facts" (basically simple clauses) and inference rules

I know, it's a state machine, the states are questions and the
given answer leads to a new state, and so on, and when you're
done (state with no outgoing arrows), then that's state isn't
a question but an answer to the original question.

Such systems are all over the net, Image Google "Do I have
ME/CFS (PEM)?" for example for some charts, but to be safe,
promise me to answer NO at the very first question!

> Under the closed-world assumption (IMO a better name than
> "hypothesis") the system can try to prove its contrary, i.e.
> to pull off a proof by contradiction. Otherwise, "I don't
> know" becomes a possible answer. Just another way to state
> that you assume that your facts database is complete.

Hm ... ?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 5:16 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Drew Adams wrote:
>
> > > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not
> > > > be used.
> > >
> > > The world is split between 3 factions:
> > > - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
> > > - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the use of SPC instead of
> > > TAB to indent.
> > > - those users who have a life.
> >
> > Hooray! If the closed-world hypothesis applies then I can
> > now say I have a life!
>
>
> I don't get it joke but
>
> The Closed World Assumption (CWA) is the assumption that
> what is not known to be true must be false. The Open World
> Assumption (OWA) is the opposite. In other words, it is the
> assumption that what is not known to be true is
> simply unknown. [1]

Ramanujan came up with modular forms that hundred years later were found to describe black holes!

> Interesting! OWA seems reasonable but how did they come up
> with CWA, when is that useful and what's closed about it,
> that you know what you know to be true and every thing else
> you then and by that can tell is false. So it's a complete
> state of the knowledge sphere, that's what's closed about it?
>
> A closed interval of integers, say [1, 3] means the endpoints
> are included, so as a Lisp list that would be '(1 2 3). But an
> open or half-open interval, e.g. [1, 3) only includes
> everything up to the endpoint but not the actual endpoint, so
> that, again [1, 3) would be '(1 2). I don't know, "open" and
> "closed"?
>
> Then there is the Open Door Policy - new and old imperial
> powers do business with China on equal terms, and in return
> they won't disintegrate the whole country and split between
> themselves LOL :)
>
> [1] https://www.dataversity.net/introduction-to-open-world-assumption-vs-closed-world-assumption/
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Christopher Dimech]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 5:38 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
> > Particularly at universities where the pressure is
> > completion of the work rather than the algorithms
> > themselves.
>
>
> Nope, Lisp is a POWERHOUSE in the university world, not
> compared to Python which is big, maybe bigger there as well,
> no I mean compared to the Lisp outside the university world
> where Lisp is a ... MINIATURE power TOOL in the hands of
> a few, very skilled programmers.
>
> One point tho is that people that do the CS thing often think
> Lisp is "functional", Lisp is older than the programming
> paradigms and besides one can do whatever with Lisp, by all
> means including a style that some people will call
> functional ...
>
> > At very serious level, I prefer that a program pushes itself
> > as far as it can, even with errors, but completes.
>
>
> ??? Programs that have errors don't complete.
>
> > That is actually a far better design as far as languages
> > are concerned.
>
>
> Hahaha :)
>
> > The problem I see, is that many who have used python as
> > their first language is also their last, with some expecting
> > their experience should spill over to other languages.

I know departments that only use one language.

> Right, that's like the problem with many carpenters these days
> with only ONE tool. One would think all that skill with the
> hammer would spill over to the knife, for example? But no and
> it worries me.
>
> > > Lisp is cooler, looks better and might be more powerful in
> > > terms of the language's expressiveness, other than those things
> > > (which are important, no doubt) I think Python would win most
> > > other Progralympic disciplines vs Lisp ... TBH!
> >
> > Python is slow
>
>
> Compared to C++? Why do you think that is?

Fortran

> > and does not scale for large projects
>
>
> Why not?

Fortran always had optimization as a main focus.

> > And you cannot always split up an algorithm in situations
> > when doing so would result in an increase in
> > algorithmic complexity.
>
>
> :)
>
> > Universities, particularly science and mathematics
> > departments frustrate me too much these days.

Professors saying they know only one language and that's it.
Others sticking with one algorithm and that's it.  This was
in Spain and in Canada.  Best useful experience has always
been an industrial one.


> You don't say! :)
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 00:00:47 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, emacs-erc@gnu.org
> 
> Yes, but emacs should allow a number of possibilities rather than being prescriptive on its use.  For instance, it does not allow multiple tabs at start of line, which happens with legacy codes (e.g. in fortran).

Of course, it does.  You just didn't study the documentation of the
Fortran mode or the built-in documentation of Fortran-related commands
to discover those facilities which do allow what you want.  See my
other message in this thread.

> I suggest a rethinking and the introduction of a set of function that help the setting up of space and tab functionality.

I suggest that you first study what is already available, before you
even consider the remote possibility of the need to rethink it.  I
submit that you don't know enough about this to make such suggestions.

> whitespace-mode should also be extended to allow users to set colour hex codes for the various highlighting regions.

It already does, please see the documentation of that mode.  If you
do, you will see that whitespace-mode provides you with no less than
13 customizable faces, through which you can control every aspect of
its display.

> For instance, whilst the highlighting of trailing spaces in vibrant, the one used for tabs suffers from a very low contrast ratio.

Contrast is to a large degree subjective, and in addition depends on
the background color you use, which cannot be known precisely enough
in advance.  If the color of some face is not to your liking, you can
customize it by providing colors that suit you better.

> Efforts should be directed towards applying accessibility measures for which there are actual standards (e.g. WCAG).  One can also use
> a colour wheel with equally seperated colours in terms of contrast ratio for increased vibrancy, which is another good measure.

We (the Emacs developers) know all about that, and apply that as much
as possible for setting the defaults.  Still, given unrelated user
customizations and the particulars of the system where Emacs is run,
customizations to change the default values are sometimes needed, and
Emacs provides you with infinite ways of doing that.

Where customizations can easily solve such problems, complaints about
the defaults mean just one thing: that the person who complains didn't
bother to look for those customizable options and use them, and
instead prefers to accuse Emacs of incompetency, while the real
incompetency is elsewhere.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 01:36:38 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> I am aware than emacs had dabbled on proportional fonts but not for programming though.

Emacs has done nothing of the sorts, please stop the insinuations.
This is being worked on as Emacs development progresses, and is
already better in latest Emacs versions.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> I am aware than emacs had dabbled on proportional fonts but
>> not for programming though.
>
> Emacs has done nothing of the sorts, please stop the
> insinuations. This is being worked on as Emacs development
> progresses, and is already better in latest Emacs versions.

Why is Emacs always falling behind? Is it something internal
or should one put all the blame one the developers?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:38 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 01:36:38 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > I am aware than emacs had dabbled on proportional fonts but not for programming though.
>
>
> Emacs has done nothing of the sorts, please stop the insinuations.
> This is being worked on as Emacs development progresses, and is
> already better in latest Emacs versions.

Proportional fonts have been tried with emacs, am I right?  But you have no working version for programming languages, am I right?

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 09:44:49 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> I am aware than emacs had dabbled on proportional fonts but
> >> not for programming though.
> >
> > Emacs has done nothing of the sorts, please stop the
> > insinuations. This is being worked on as Emacs development
> > progresses, and is already better in latest Emacs versions.
> 
> Why is Emacs always falling behind? Is it something internal
> or should one put all the blame one the developers?

First, I don't think "always" is correct, let alone accurate.

Where we do fall behind in significant ways its IMO due to lack of
resources and the fact that the Emacs development is not really
"governed", at least not when major development directions are
considered.  Developers basically do what they like.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 07:57:48 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > I am aware than emacs had dabbled on proportional fonts but not for programming though.
> >
> > Emacs has done nothing of the sorts, please stop the insinuations.
> > This is being worked on as Emacs development progresses, and is
> > already better in latest Emacs versions.
> 
> Proportional fonts have been tried with emacs, am I right?

Yes.

> But you have no working version for programming languages, am I right?

No.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 8:27 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 07:57:48 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > > I am aware than emacs had dabbled on proportional fonts but not for programming though.
> > >
> > > Emacs has done nothing of the sorts, please stop the insinuations.
> > > This is being worked on as Emacs development progresses, and is
> > > already better in latest Emacs versions.
> >
> > Proportional fonts have been tried with emacs, am I right?
>
>
> Yes.
>
> > But you have no working version for programming languages, am I right?
>
>
> No.

So how is it?  I could have a try and play with that.  Provided you can handle some rudeness ;)
At any rate, my rudeness is not important because I am not the one making the emacs decisions.
I can only describe my difficulties, that's it.

Re: Indentation with spaces

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 09:07:27 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > But you have no working version for programming languages, am I right?
> >
> >
> > No.
> 
> So how is it?  I could have a try and play with that.  Provided you can handle some rudeness ;)

Check out the pixel-fill package in the development sources.

RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Drew Adams]

> >>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default?
> >>> Tabs should not be used.
> >>
> >> The world is split between 3 factions:
> >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
> >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the
> >>   use of SPC instead of TAB to indent.
> >> - those users who have a life.
> >
> > Hooray! If the closed-world hypothesis applies
> > then I can now say I have a life!
> 
> I don't get it joke

If CWA holds, and we know/assume the world has
only those 3 factions, and if neither of the first
two cases holds then the third must be the case.

IOW, if it's not true that you absolutely can't
tolerate TABs, and it's not true that you
absolutely can't tolerate SPCs, then you have a
life.

On the other hand, if OWA holds, maybe something
other than those 3 cases holds...

> but
> 
>   The Closed World Assumption (CWA) is the assumption that
>   what is not known to be true must be false. The Open World
>   Assumption (OWA) is the opposite. In other words, it is the
>   assumption that what is not known to be true is
>   simply unknown. [1]
> 
> Interesting! OWA seems reasonable but how did they come up
> with CWA, when is that useful

It's simpler to reason with.  If you don't know
something to be true then you conclude that it's
false.  This is a common approach - databases,
Prolog etc.  Cf. `completing-read' with arg
REQIUIRE-MATCH = t.

Of course, one can interpret "no match" as just
"dunno" or "unproven", but often it's acted on
as "false".  And as Tomas perhaps hinted, it's
not just about classifying as true, false, and
dunno.

It's about the difference between any such
closed classification and a representation or
system that's based on the idea that both
(a) the set of stuff that's classified and
(b) the classification of that stuff both
(1) are inherently incomplete and (2) can
change.

CWA is akin to not-proven-guilty-means-innocent
(or not-proven-innocent-means-guilty).  OWA
assumes only that not-proven means not-proven.

> and what's closed about it,

It doesn't allow for the possibility that there
are unknowns.  It assumes that, at any time,
what's known to be true is all there is.

It's a useful simplification.  But it presents
difficulties wrt the nature of real knowledge
and its evolution.

> that you know what you know to be true and every thing else
> you then and by that can tell is false. So it's a complete
> state of the knowledge sphere, that's what's closed about it?

Exactly.  At any given time.  And a system that
allows for increasing or changing knowledge has
somehow to deal with non-monotonic changes in
what's known (in particular).

> [1]
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dataversity.net/introduction-
> to-open-world-assumption-vs-closed-world-
> assumption/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!NmVaOzeFvXD6WCus5nkkRpZP7Fiih7FVO7UUsEX
> d-B3ZRQ6mzozldTZQvG4Re0gXUeyMdIAKE0Bpn36B$

RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Drew Adams]

> At any rate, my rudeness is not important because
> I am not the one making the emacs decisions.
> I can only describe my difficulties, that's it.

Rudeness can make a difference in the degree to
which others want to help you when you ask for help.

There are typically some who will always be willing
to help, to some extent, but you might miss out some.

Whether giving up some rudeness for (possibly) more
or better help from others is worth it, is of course
up to the help-requestor to decide.
___

The smart-ass kid showed a clenched fist to the
guru, and asked what was in the fist.  The reply:
a bird.  The kid asked whether it was alive or
dead.  The reply: "That's up to you."

RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 3:43 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:


> > At any rate, my rudeness is not important because
> > I am not the one making the emacs decisions.
> > I can only describe my difficulties, that's it.
>
>
> Rudeness can make a difference in the degree to
> which others want to help you when you ask for help.
>
> There are typically some who will always be willing
> to help, to some extent, but you might miss out some.
>
> Whether giving up some rudeness for (possibly) more
> or better help from others is worth it, is of course
> up to the help-requestor to decide.

Can give up some rudeness, sure.  The problem is much more complicated, so it is taking long time for developers to understand the nature of legacy code.  Have any of them really worked with legacy fortran code written by many people.  I mean real legacy from the late 1950's to late 1980's.

Describing why it’s bad, and how to do it in the correct way, is not the answer.  I often see people refer to any fixed-form source as legacy fortran, even if it includes modern features.  That's where people are going wrong.

> ___
>
> The smart-ass kid showed a clenched fist to the
> guru, and asked what was in the fist. The reply:
> a bird. The kid asked whether it was alive or
> dead. The reply: "That's up to you."

RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Drew Adams]

> The problem is much more complicated, so it is
> taking long time for developers to understand
> the nature of legacy code.  Have any of them
> really worked with legacy fortran code written
> by many people[?].  I mean real legacy from the
> late 1950's to late 1980's.

I can't speak for "developers".  But I have - I've
worked with legacy Fortran code from the 50s, 60s,
70s, and 80s.  I've even written some of it.

If you don't find your happiness with Emacs then
you might consider using another editor.  I've
also used editors from that prehistoric period -
maybe one of those will be more to your liking.

I prefer Emacs, though TBH I haven't used it with
Fortran.  But your mileage may vary.  Fortunately
it's easy to return Emacs and get your money back.
Quick and easy.  Actually, don't even bother to
return it.

> > The smart-ass kid showed a clenched fist to the
> > guru, and asked what was in the fist. The reply:
> > a bird. The kid asked whether it was alive or
> > dead. The reply: "That's up to you."

It really _is_ up to you.  Nobody's forcing you
to find peace with Emacs, let alone to find your
happiness with it.

People here (and elsewhere, where you've apparently
repeated the same question) are just trying to help
you.  Clearly they're not succeeding at that, which
I guess is too bad.

A horse can be led to water...

RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 2:21 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:


> > The problem is much more complicated, so it is
> > taking long time for developers to understand
> > the nature of legacy code. Have any of them
> > really worked with legacy fortran code written
> > by many people[?]. I mean real legacy from the
> > late 1950's to late 1980's.
>
>
> I can't speak for "developers". But I have - I've
> worked with legacy Fortran code from the 50s, 60s,
> 70s, and 80s. I've even written some of it.
>
> If you don't find your happiness with Emacs then
> you might consider using another editor. I've
> also used editors from that prehistoric period -
> maybe one of those will be more to your liking.

My plan was to stimulate happiness with Emacs even for these
codes, without using other editors.

> I prefer Emacs, though TBH I haven't used it with
> Fortran. But your mileage may vary. Fortunately
> it's easy to return Emacs and get your money back.
> Quick and easy. Actually, don't even bother to
> return it.

You see.  That was my whole point when others start bashing
who they want to call novices, when they themselves cannot
back their called solutions with real experience with such
codes on emacs.

Looks like electric-indent-mode was doing this behaviour.
Meaning that electric indendation should be enabled carefully
on legacy code.

> > > The smart-ass kid showed a clenched fist to the
> > > guru, and asked what was in the fist. The reply:
> > > a bird. The kid asked whether it was alive or
> > > dead. The reply: "That's up to you."

> It really is up to you. Nobody's forcing you
> to find peace with Emacs, let alone to find your
> happiness with it.
>
> People here (and elsewhere, where you've apparently
> repeated the same question) are just trying to help
> you. Clearly they're not succeeding at that, which
> I guess is too bad.

It just takes time and the possibility that those considered
gurus in the society overestimate their ability or knowledge.

> A horse can be led to water...

Re: RE: [External] : Indentation with spaces

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 3:43 AM
> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> To: "Emanuel Berg" <incal@dataswamp.org>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces
>
> > >>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default?
> > >>> Tabs should not be used.
> > >>
> > >> The world is split between 3 factions:
> > >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate TABs.
> > >> - those users who absolutely cannot tolerate the
> > >>   use of SPC instead of TAB to indent.
> > >> - those users who have a life.

That world view in incorrect.  With Fortran Fixed-Form Legacy Code
you will find people using a variety of styles.  Some use only TABs.
Others use spaces.  The problem is not about the TABS and SPACES,
it is about formatting.

Emacs accepts TABS and SPACES but then forces its own stylistic
arrangement when electric-indent-mode is enabled.  This Emacs feature,
ends up modifying the original code style, something that is commonly
avoided when dealing with very old legacy code.

The point is that whilst emacs allows the introduction of tabs and spaces,
Emacs cannot be allowed to take decisions on where the code is placed in
the buffer, if that conflicts with what the code designer wants to do.

The solution does not look straightforward.  Thusly, a request for a special
setup for a major-mode to cater for these situations is understandable.

> > > Hooray! If the closed-world hypothesis applies
> > > then I can now say I have a life!
> >
> > I don't get it joke
>
> If CWA holds, and we know/assume the world has
> only those 3 factions, and if neither of the first
> two cases holds then the third must be the case.
>
> IOW, if it's not true that you absolutely can't
> tolerate TABs, and it's not true that you
> absolutely can't tolerate SPCs, then you have a
> life.
>
> On the other hand, if OWA holds, maybe something
> other than those 3 cases holds...
>
> > but
> >
> >   The Closed World Assumption (CWA) is the assumption that
> >   what is not known to be true must be false. The Open World
> >   Assumption (OWA) is the opposite. In other words, it is the
> >   assumption that what is not known to be true is
> >   simply unknown. [1]
> >
> > Interesting! OWA seems reasonable but how did they come up
> > with CWA, when is that useful
>
> It's simpler to reason with.  If you don't know
> something to be true then you conclude that it's
> false.  This is a common approach - databases,
> Prolog etc.  Cf. `completing-read' with arg
> REQIUIRE-MATCH = t.

In 1895, the famous british physicist William Thompson remarked
that "heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible".

> Of course, one can interpret "no match" as just
> "dunno" or "unproven", but often it's acted on
> as "false".  And as Tomas perhaps hinted, it's
> not just about classifying as true, false, and
> dunno.
>
> It's about the difference between any such
> closed classification and a representation or
> system that's based on the idea that both
> (a) the set of stuff that's classified and
> (b) the classification of that stuff both
> (1) are inherently incomplete and (2) can
> change.
>
> CWA is akin to not-proven-guilty-means-innocent
> (or not-proven-innocent-means-guilty).  OWA
> assumes only that not-proven means not-proven.
>
> > and what's closed about it,
>
> It doesn't allow for the possibility that there
> are unknowns.  It assumes that, at any time,
> what's known to be true is all there is.
>
> It's a useful simplification.  But it presents
> difficulties wrt the nature of real knowledge
> and its evolution.
>
> > that you know what you know to be true and every thing else
> > you then and by that can tell is false. So it's a complete
> > state of the knowledge sphere, that's what's closed about it?
>
> Exactly.  At any given time.  And a system that
> allows for increasing or changing knowledge has
> somehow to deal with non-monotonic changes in
> what's known (in particular).
>
> > [1]
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dataversity.net/introduction-
> > to-open-world-assumption-vs-closed-world-
> > assumption/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!NmVaOzeFvXD6WCus5nkkRpZP7Fiih7FVO7UUsEX
> > d-B3ZRQ6mzozldTZQvG4Re0gXUeyMdIAKE0Bpn36B$
>
>

Re: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 20:31:38 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> The problem is much more complicated, so it is taking long time for developers to understand the nature of legacy code.

Did you consider the possibility that it is due to your inability to
explain the problem, not to our inability to understand it?

> Have any of them really worked with legacy fortran code written by many people.  I mean real legacy from the late 1950's to late 1980's.

Yes, of course we have.  Some of us are much older than you think.

Re: [External] : Re: Indentation with spaces

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

>>   The Closed World Assumption (CWA) is the assumption that
>>   what is not known to be true must be false. The Open
>>   World Assumption (OWA) is the opposite. In other words,
>>   it is the assumption that what is not known to be true is
>>   simply unknown.
>> 
>> Interesting! OWA seems reasonable but how did they come up
>> with CWA, when is that useful
>
> It's simpler to reason with. If you don't know something to
> be true then you conclude that it's false. This is a common
> approach - databases, Prolog etc. Cf. `completing-read' with
> arg REQIUIRE-MATCH = t.
>
> Of course, one can interpret "no match" as just "dunno" or
> "unproven", but often it's acted on as "false". And as Tomas
> perhaps hinted, it's not just about classifying as true,
> false, and dunno.
>
> It's about the difference between any such closed
> classification and a representation or system that's based
> on the idea that both (a) the set of stuff that's classified
> and (b) the classification of that stuff both (1) are
> inherently incomplete and (2) can change.
>
> CWA is akin to not-proven-guilty-means-innocent (or
> not-proven-innocent-means-guilty). OWA assumes only that
> not-proven means not-proven.
>
>> and what's closed about it,
>
> It doesn't allow for the possibility that there are
> unknowns. It assumes that, at any time, what's known to be
> true is all there is.
>
> It's a useful simplification. But it presents difficulties
> wrt the nature of real knowledge and its evolution.
>
>> that you know what you know to be true and every thing else
>> you then and by that can tell is false. So it's a complete
>> state of the knowledge sphere, that's what's closed
>> about it?
>
> Exactly. At any given time. And a system that allows for
> increasing or changing knowledge has somehow to deal with
> non-monotonic changes in what's known (in particular).

I understand, thanks.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal