From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim X Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:36:52 +1100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <871wmglrjv.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> References: <87odpmlnze.fsf@kobe.laptop> <87ejqikz0d.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> <87ac15lh5f.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1167532880 29312 80.91.229.12 (31 Dec 2006 02:41:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 02:41:20 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 31 03:41:19 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1H0qdM-000340-G3 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Dec 2006 03:41:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1H0qdL-0000SU-WA for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 21:41:12 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xt-sjc-02!sn-xt-sjc-11!sn-xt-sjc-09!sn-post-sjc-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:kecKZRDya/eirEVzza+NcTzKVM0= Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Original-Lines: 77 Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:144437 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:40041 Archived-At: Matthew Flaschen writes: > >> I think you missed the point. RMS does not like the use of the term >> open source, but prefers free software. > > I'm well aware of that. > > The problem is that open source does not necessarily mean free (as in > liberty) as you can have >> software in which the sources are open, but the licensing is >> restrictive and non-free. I personally agree with this distinction >> unless I have misunderstood his arguement (which is possible and why I >> mentioned it.). > > This is mostly a misconception. The reason that Stallman doesn't like > the open source movement is that it is based solely on practical > expediency, while free software is about morality. I agree with him > here, and prefer "free software". However, in practice, almost all open > source (as defined by the Open Source Initiative) licenses are also > free. The Open Source Definition > (http://opensource.org/docs/definition.php) has detailed requirements, > including free redistribution (modified or unmodified) for free or for a > fee, and access to source. > Maybe we are getting down to "hair splitting" a little too much. However, in an interview I heard with RMS on a podcast, he was very critical of OSI and the problem with the use of the term open source. Your quite correct regarding is arguments concerning expediency and the danger this can represent for general freedom, especially in the long term. However, he was very very clear about not using the term open source and I have had e-mails from him correcting me for referring to GPL's software as open source (this was software released under the GPL, but not GNU software). AFter a few exchanges and after listening to that interview, I think I understand exactly what his concerns are and I have to say I agree. In the interview, the arguement centred around provision of MS media codecs - one side argued that it should be easier for people to obtain and install these codecs as this would increase the number of people switching to GNU Linux. On the other side, RMS argued that the cost to freedom this would result in was too high and he would rather see a truely free system used by less people than pseudo free OS used by a lot. Being a bit of an old idealist and readily admitting to finding Marxist theory, while flawed, better than any other, I could appreciate this point. >> You might believe that this is all self evident, but I have been using >> systems based on the Linux kernel since the first release of Slackware >> and the terminology and how it is applied has not been a static thing. >> The move away from the general term "Linux" to GNU Linux, while >> positive in reducing confusion between the OS and kernel references, >> was not emphasised initially as much as it seems to be now. > > Yes, the FSF says (http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#always) "It > took a few years for us to realize what a problem this was and ask > people to correct the practice. By that time, the confusion had a big > head start." > >> Open source was considered as synonymous with "free software" until Eric >> Raymond and the OSI blurred things > > If I understand right, "open source" was not much used at all until the > OSI (and their founders) popularized it. Hmm, not sure. The OSI wold seem a bit of a late arrival in my chronology. The CS department at the University I worked at in '94 was already starting to make a bit of a 'big deal' about the fact they were moving to open source then and even started using the term in their publicity in '94/95. All PCs in the CS labs were running slackware at that time (but to be honest, a fair part of this was because MS Win 31 and DOS were just crippled pretend OSs at that time and even early, limited and buggy GNU Linux was better). Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au