don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Sometimes, the text I want to read in Emacs-w3m has a width (in
chars) that would suggest that I could have it all visible at
once. But, the horizontal scrolling is so heavy-handed, that it
still isn't possible! So I setup scrolling char by char, left and
right (code last). I seems to work, but there is still the
annoying bar of dollar signs ($). (Check out the screenshot, yet
after the code.) How can I disable the $-bar? "Disable" could be
as in disable, or as in just showing whitespaces instead.

(put 'scroll-left  'disabled nil)
(put 'scroll-right 'disabled nil)

(defun scroll-left-1  () (interactive) (scroll-left  1))
(defun scroll-right-1 () (interactive) (scroll-right 1))

(let ((map (current-global-map)))
 (define-key map (kbd "C-o i") 'scroll-right-1)
 (define-key map (kbd "C-o o") 'scroll-left-1) )

Screenshot: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/money.png

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Michael Heerdegen]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Sometimes, the text I want to read in Emacs-w3m has a width (in
> chars) that would suggest that I could have it all visible at
> once. But, the horizontal scrolling is so heavy-handed, that it
> still isn't possible! So I setup scrolling char by char, left and
> right (code last). I seems to work, but there is still the
> annoying bar of dollar signs ($). (Check out the screenshot, yet
> after the code.) How can I disable the $-bar?

This "$-bar" is actually the left fringe, displaying the glyph standing
for line truncation.  This glyph is defined by the currently used
display-table.

So you have two options: either hide the fringe.  Fringes are belonging
to windows (not to buffers), so hiding them generally is maybe not what
you want.

To change the glyph, either set `buffer-display-table' for w3m buffers
if you want to modify the glyph only for w3m buffers.  To change this
globally, you want something like

  (set-display-table-slot standard-display-table 0 ?\ )

which would set the glyph to the space character.  But note that the
glyph indicating line truncation in the right fringe is the same one.


See

 (info "(elisp) Character Display")

and

 (info "(elisp) Active Display Table")

where the background is explained.


Regards,

Michael.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:

> So you have two options: either hide the fringe.  Fringes are
> belonging to windows (not to buffers), so hiding them generally
> is maybe not what you want.

Perhaps it is? How do I do that? If I do that, does that mean I
get two more chars (one to the left, and one to the right) per
line? That would be cool: I use such huge fonts - at least
compared to most other people - so while *I* am used to typing
short lines, when I browse code from other programmers, even an
extra two chars would be great, because those lines tend to be
very long.

> To change the glyph, either set `buffer-display-table' for w3m
> buffers if you want to modify the glyph only for w3m buffers.
> To change this globally, you want something like
>
> (set-display-table-slot standard-display-table 0 ?\ )

0 (zero) - is that how to denote the "glyph"?

> which would set the glyph to the space character.  But note that
> the glyph indicating line truncation in the right fringe is the
> same one.

Yes, that worked. I will try to use it globally. I'll find soon
enough if the dollar sign gets missed.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Damien Wyart]

> > So you have two options: either hide the fringe. Fringes are
> > belonging to windows (not to buffers), so hiding them generally is
> > maybe not what you want.

* Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> in gnu.emacs.help:
> Perhaps it is? How do I do that?

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheFringe
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11373826/how-to-disable-fringe-in-emacs
  (describing a (old ?) bug, but giving some interesting settings).

-- 
DW

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Damien Wyart <damien.wyart@free.fr> writes:

> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TheFringe
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11373826/how-to-disable-fringe-in-emacs
> (describing a (old ?) bug, but giving some interesting settings).

The below doesn't seem to do anything, neither in X or the tty.

(set-fringe-mode '(0 . 0))
(set-fringe-mode '(10 . 10))

I says in the documentation that a zero should disable the fringe,
but if so - if the glyph appears in the fringe - why do I still
need

(set-display-table-slot standard-display-table 0 ?\ )

to hide the $'s?

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>
> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:32:09 +0200
> 
> The below doesn't seem to do anything, neither in X or the tty.
> 
> (set-fringe-mode '(0 . 0))

This should disable the fringes on X.  The TTY Emacs doesn't have
fringes (which are a GUI feature, thus unavailable on a TTY).  But in
a GUI session, the above works for me in all Emacs versions starting
with 22.1.  If it doesn't for you, you are doing something wrong.  I
don't know what it is that you are doing wrong, because you didn't
explain how you tried to make the above work -- what did you type,
exactly, and where.

> I says in the documentation that a zero should disable the fringe,
> but if so - if the glyph appears in the fringe - why do I still
> need
> 
> (set-display-table-slot standard-display-table 0 ?\ )
> 
> to hide the $'s?

Because the $ glyph is a separate feature.

Emacs on X can show truncated lines either on the fringes, using
special bitmaps, or with the special glyph, which is $ by default; the
latter feature kicks in if the fringes are not available.  If you want
to get rid of both the fringes and the $ glyph, you need to disable
them separately.

(At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading the
manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not recommended
if you don't even know what the fringes are, how to control them, and
what is slot zero of the standard-display-table.)

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> (At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading the
>> manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not
>> recommended if you don't even know...
>
> +1, and even if one does know...

-1: rude, negativistic comment.

> I'd suggest also learning to use Customize, if you haven't
> already.

No, I prefer having everything as Elisp that I myself write, that
way I don't have to navigate back and forth in a "whole-screen"
system like that. I don't like such systems in general: for
example, I don't like 'info' either. I like the man pages,
although they are hypertexted to, but that is much less
emphasized, and I almost never use it.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

RE: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Drew Adams]

> >> (At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading the
> >> manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not
> >> recommended if you don't even know...
> >
> > +1, and even if one does know...
> 
> -1: rude, negativistic comment.

My point was that even if one knows such stuff (advanced stuff or not)
it can help to read about it again.

By "one" I meant first of all myself: one who has learned some,
forgotten some, and relearned some, more than once. That's advice I
give myself, and it's still unsolicited advice I would offer others.
Perhaps a smily would have helped you not interpret such advice
negatively.  Or perhaps not.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>>>> (At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading
>>>> the manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not
>>>> recommended if you don't even know...
>>>
>>> +1, and even if one does know...
>> 
>> -1: rude, negativistic comment.
>
> By "one" I meant first of all myself: one who has learned some,
> forgotten some, and relearned some, more than once.

That's always the case. Yet, every time you relearn, it is faster,
and you gain a better understanding than the first time you
learned it. So in that sense forgetting is a bliss.

My comment was not aimed at your answer, which wasn't rude in any
way.

> That's advice I give myself, and it's still unsolicited advice I
> would offer others.

Yes, I agree.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 533 bytes --]

() Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>
() Thu, 25 Jul 2013 02:58:34 +0200

   My comment was not aimed at your answer,
   which wasn't rude in any way.

Regardless of aim, what you post is broadcast,
a sphere of sound and sense, slowly expanding.
What will you say of this bubble in t+10years?

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
   GPG key: 4C807502
   (if you're human and you know it)
      read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
                               (not (via 'mailing-list)))
                     => nil

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

RE: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Drew Adams]

> > doesn't seem to do anything, neither in X or the tty.
> > (set-fringe-mode '(0 . 0))
...
> (At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading the
> manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not recommended
> if you don't even know...

+1, and even if one does know...

I'd suggest also learning to use Customize, if you haven't already.

Assuming that you want to set up fringes in general (i.e., your
preferred default fringe settings), just
`M-x customize-option fringe-mode'.  You have the choice among:

* Default
* No fringes
* Right only
* Left only
* Half width
* Minimal
* Specific width
* Different left/right sizes

And the doc is right there too, to explain things.  Customize is
pretty easy to use, and it keeps its settings separate from your
own Lisp (e.g., ~/.emacs) settings if you use option `custom-file'
(which you should, IMHO).

And - especially - it performs type-checking and takes care of
initialization, automatic updating in special cases, and possibly
complex interactions with other functions, modes, options, internal
variables, etc.  IOW, let Emacs do the busy work for you.

(I notice now, BTW, that (emacs) `Fringes' does not mention user
option `fringe-mode'.  I've filed a doc bug (#14946) for that.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> This should disable the fringes on X.  The TTY Emacs doesn't
> have fringes (which are a GUI feature, thus unavailable on a
> TTY).  But in a GUI session, the above works

Yes, that explains it. I always use Emacs in a Linux VT (a TTY),
and when I tried it in X, I had forgot that I had aliased 'emacs'
to 'emacs -nw'. I'm so used to Emacs looking like that, I didn't
notice. With '\emacs -Q' and a WM, I get the GUI window.

> (At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading the
> manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not
> recommended ...

Yes, it is. I'm not afraid of my computer.

> if you don't even know what the fringes are, how to control
> them, and what is slot zero of the standard-display-table.)

I know that stuff - now.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> Yes, it is. I'm not afraid of my computer.

-1: rude comment, cavalier attitude.

Eli's suggestion that "messing with such advanced stuff is not
recommended" should not be interpreted, I think, as "Don't Do It
Because You're Not Prepared Or Smart Enough". It's more like, well, if
you like to experiment so much without reading the manuals, then
please don't waste people's time asking questions; surely you'll be
able to figure it all eventually without outside help.

...And if that's not what Eli meant, certainly it is what I do mean...

Asking questions and then rating helpful answers for rudeness is... interesting.

   J

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

>> Yes, it is. I'm not afraid of my computer.
>
> -1: rude comment, cavalier attitude.

+1: Cavalier, that's a compliment.

> Eli's suggestion that "messing with such advanced stuff is not
> recommended" should not be interpreted, I think, as "Don't Do It
> Because You're Not Prepared Or Smart Enough".

He also said "... if you don't even know ..." which you don't
quote. And you also spell out a possible (rude) interpretation,
even though you say that wasn't the point. That means that
interpretation is possible and close at hand.

And - hiding the fringes. Is that really considered "advanced"? If
it can be achieved with one line of Elisp, I don't think it is
especially advanced or in any way dangerous to configure.

> It's more like, well, if you like to experiment so much without
> reading the manuals

I have read the Emacs manual - twice. And the white book on Emacs
that O'Reilly.

If the fringes were mentioned in those books, I have no problem
with that because my memory is not perfect.

> then please don't waste people's time asking questions

I'm not wasting anyone's time because I'm only in charge of my own
time.

> surely you'll be able to figure it all eventually without
> outside help.

No, that is not what happened at all. I asked the question and got
help, as you saw. Eli's answer was helpful as well, until it
turned rude.

> Asking questions and then rating helpful answers for rudeness
> is... interesting.

Eli's answer were helpful *and* rude. There was a helpful part,
*and* a rude part. But there is no balance in that. You can't help
me, and then be rude, and think everything's OK. It doesn't matter
how much you help me: I don't accept rudeness.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> And you also spell out a possible (rude) interpretation,
> even though you say that wasn't the point. That means that
> interpretation is possible and close at hand.

With a working imagination and a little effort, every conceivable
interpretation is possible and close at hand.

     J

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

>> And you also spell out a possible (rude) interpretation, even
>> though you say that wasn't the point. That means that
>> interpretation is possible and close at hand.
>
> With a working imagination and a little effort, every
> conceivable interpretation is possible and close at hand.

No, that was a rude comment and it wasn't my imagination or any
efforts of mine that made it rude.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Rustom Mody]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:23:05 PM UTC+5:30, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> (At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading the
> manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not recommended
> if you don't even know what the fringes are, how to control them, and
> what is slot zero of the standard-display-table.)

Even after teaching CS for nearly 3 decades, I continue to find unsettling the mercilessness with which the Dunning-Kruger effect strikes the unwary.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

>> (At this point, I'd suggest to invest some time in reading the
>> manuals, because messing with such advanced stuff is not
>> recommended if you don't even know what the fringes are, how to
>> control them, and what is slot zero of the
>> standard-display-table.)
>
> Even after teaching CS for nearly 3 decades, I continue to find
> unsettling the mercilessness with which the Dunning-Kruger
> effect strikes the unwary.

What is the Dunning-Kruger effect? Wikipedia:

> The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled
> individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating
> their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed
> to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their
> mistakes.

Well, well! Are you going to keep this up, guys?! I asked a
question on technology, and got a couple of answers. Since then,
you are doing your worst insulting me.

OK, Mody: 1) I have a degree in CS myself, probably not as fancy
as yours, but fancy enough to know this is not CS, but CP
(computer practice). You can't pull rank.

2) And, I happen to be a teacher myself. And the *one* thing I
always encourage my students is: be *active* with your material!
Think, write, draw, ask, answer, juggle. You, on the other hand:
when I ask how to hide the $ sign - which is doable with *one*
line of Elisp, a solution which worked instantly, and in the
process brought clarity to another thing I didn't know, namely
fringes - you think this illusory superiority, of an unskilled
individual? I hope for your students sake this is not how you
treat them.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> Well, well! Are you going to keep this up, guys?! I asked a
> question on technology, and got a couple of answers. Since then,
> you are doing your worst insulting me.

Do you think this is some kind of plot against you? Or could be another reason?

   J

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> Do you think this is some kind of plot against you? Or could be
> another reason?

I don't have to think. I *see* me asking a question on technology,
and getting the most rude insults back. Why you guys behave the
way you do the Devil knows.

*Important*: Those of you who answered seriously and without
 insults, I'm *not* forgetting that you did so.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> I don't have to think. I *see* me asking a question on technology,
> and getting the most rude insults back. Why you guys behave the
> way you do the Devil knows.

Which means that there's nothing you could be doing that has any
bearing in the kind of answers that you get.

> *Important*: Those of you who answered seriously and without
>  insults, I'm *not* forgetting that you did so.

Your attitude, for example.

   J

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

>> I don't have to think. I *see* me asking a question on
>> technology, and getting the most rude insults back. Why you
>> guys behave the way you do the Devil knows.
>
> Which means that there's nothing you could be doing that has any
> bearing in the kind of answers that you get.

Which means - that I'm not going to analyze your behaviour. I'm
not in the business of changing peoples brains. Stupid is, as
stupid does. If you guys (some of you) insult me when I'm active
with technology, I don't have to do anything. I'm doing the right
thing, and you guys (some of you) are not.

*And* - even if I *were* doing something wrong, the correct
 response to this is *still* not being rude!

Remember, "It is easy to be angry. But it is difficult to be angry
at the right moment, at the right person, and for the right
reason." And you could add: "It is even more difficult to show
that anger in the correct way."

So: I'm angry at YOU (some of you), NOW, because of INSULTS that
has NOTHING to do with why we are here, and I'm SHOWING this anger
by TELLING you why I'm angry.

Am I getting through to you?!

>> *Important*: Those of you who answered seriously and without
>> insults, I'm *not* forgetting that you did so.
>
> Your attitude, for example.

What about it?

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

    "All the world's a stage,
    and all the men and women merely players:
    they have their exits and their entrances;
    and one man in his time plays many parts..."

        —As You Like It, Act II, Scene 7, 139–42[28]

Hmmm! 

Other players want Emanuel, "the Technologist" to exit.  Emanuel thinks
otherwise.

Popcorn time!!!

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> Am I getting through to you?!

Not more or less than before.

> What about it?

If this

>>> *Important*: Those of you who answered seriously and without
>>> insults, I'm *not* forgetting that you did so.

doesn't strike you as childish, our worldviews are vastly different.

   J

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> If this
>
>>>> *Important*: Those of you who answered seriously and without
>>>> insults, I'm *not* forgetting that you did so.
>
> doesn't strike you as childish, our worldviews are vastly
> different.

I didn't want to direct any resentment to those who didn't deserve
it, and by saying so, hopefully I didn't. What's wrong with that?
"Childish" is on the contrary to be angry with everyone at the
first setback, without discretion.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Rustom Mody]

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 1:22:45 PM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> OK, Mody: 1) I have a degree in CS myself, probably not as fancy
> as yours, but fancy enough to know this is not CS, but CP
> (computer practice). You can't pull rank.

No rank or pulling. Basic education-stuff.
You want to learn calculus? Ok first need to clear algebra.
Algebra? First need arithmetic.
So... Basic stuff: abc before xyz.

Eli asked you to read some basic stuff before grappling with more advanced stuff.

emacs is quite a formidable piece of software -- hopefully that you will agree with. And in dealing with that, listening to the sequencing suggestions of insider-guys (like Eli) seems like a good idea.
eg if you were teaching emacs to a noob, would you not put C-x C-f before M-x find-file before M-: (find-file) ?
Ok Eli spoke more roughly/rudely than necessary.  Maybe there are other contextual reasons for that?... Dunno...

> 2) And, I happen to be a teacher myself. 

If you are serious about that (and everyone who is trying to learn something needs to be serious at least about teaching himself) you can take it from someone who has taught some thousands of students: the single biggest problem in teaching/learning is closing the meta-cognitive loop. Or less jargoned: How to debug yourself.

It matters little
- how much you know
- how hard you work
- which degrees you possess
- which muscles bulge how much

Yeah it matters... but very little compared to the ability to debug.

You could debug emacs with gdb.  Maybe guys like Eli do such things occasionally... Dunno.
For more ordinary mortals, edebug is usually more than enough heavyweight.
Drew's suggestion to use customize (note as a debugging tool) is even more lightweight. (I personally hate customize as a customization tool though its neat for exploration)

And Eli's suggestion to approach the corpus of stuff inside emacs in a certain order is more lightweight still.

So...
Its really quite easy to NOT be in the category to which Dunning-Kruger apply:
Just be ready/easy to say: "Yeah... I dont know... How to learn???"

[The wikipedia article is as usual boringly written.
It links to http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/the-anosognosics-dilemma-1/?_r=0  which explains better ]

Let me end with something that we veteran teachers always fear: The Einstein effect.
One of Einstein's school teachers told him he was an idiot and a useless who would never make anything of his life.
And so when you cross to the other side and become a teacher, theres always the nagging fear: Is there some idiot in my class who will become Einstein in future?

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

I care little for the old farts who show no tolerance for enthusiasm of
an young man.

I find Emanuel enthusiastic (and a bit chirpy) but definitely not
arrogant.  He has shown his Emacs Lisp snippets and I have no doubt that
he has good working knowledge of Emacs.

We don't want to drive Emanuel away.  I hope he sticks around in this
list and helps others with their queries.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 03:34:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>
> 
> Ok Eli spoke more roughly/rudely than necessary.

I don't understand why you say that.  There was nothing rude or
"rough" in what I wrote, not a single rude or offensive word.

I gave a comprehensive answer to the OP's questions.  I then
suggested, given his apparent lack of knowledge about the stuff being
discussed, to read about that in the manuals.  Since not knowing
something is not something one should be ashamed of, how can a
_suggestion_ to learn about that be "rude"?  And if it _is_ considered
rude, I wonder what isn't.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> No rank or pulling. Basic education-stuff.  You want to learn
> calculus? Ok first need to clear algebra.  Algebra? First need
> arithmetic.  So... Basic stuff: abc before xyz.

In general - perhaps, but you shouldn't be afraid to advance as
fast as possible. "Advance too fast, you catch up with death. But
advance too slow, death catches up with *you*."

In this particular case, "advance too fast" is nonsense because I
don't need to do anything before I change the dollar sign or
disable the fringe. I just need to know how to do it, and this
information was provided.

> Eli asked you to read some basic stuff before grappling with
> more advanced stuff.

Like I said, I don't consider that advanced, and besides I read
every book on Emacs I have gotten hold of, plus every Emacs
chapter in every general Linux book I ever saw. To assume I didn't
read anything is in itself an insult, and incorrect at that.

> emacs is quite a formidable piece of software -- hopefully that
> you will agree with. And in dealing with that, listening to the
> sequencing suggestions of insider-guys (like Eli)

Again, rank is irrelevant: I'm able to asses material as it is. I
don't care if you coded creation itself, if you're rude, I don't
want to deal with you.

> If you are serious about that (and everyone who is trying to
> learn something needs to be serious at least about teaching
> himself) you can take it from someone who has taught some
> thousands of students

I'm not going to take anything from a person who pulls rank every
second sentence.

> So...  Its really quite easy to NOT be in the category to which
> Dunning-Kruger apply: Just be ready/easy to say: "Yeah... I dont
> know... How to learn???"

I know how to learn. You learn by being active. How do the Cuban
boxers win Gold at every Olympics? How do they master to throw
punches? They throw 1000 punches a day, and then they eat and
sleep. Learning is difficult to do, but not difficult to
understand.

> Let me end with something that we veteran

The only thing you do is pull rank.

> teachers always fear: The Einstein effect.  One of Einstein's
> school teachers told him he was an idiot and a useless who would
> never make anything of his life.  And so when you cross to the
> other side and become a teacher, theres always the nagging fear:
> Is there some idiot in my class who will become Einstein in
> future?

Why on Earth would you fear that? I don't know what Einstein did,
but if he did good things, as I think, we could sure use more of
those.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

Emanuel

One does not have to be a Technologist to use or be proficient with
Emacs.  This is what RMS has to say

,---- http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html
|
| It was Bernie Greenberg, who discovered .... He wrote a version of Emacs
| in Multics MacLisp, and he wrote his commands in MacLisp in a
| straightforward fashion. The editor itself was written entirely in
| Lisp. Multics Emacs proved to be a great success — programming new
| editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his
| office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had
| written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a
| programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do
| programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they
| could do useful things and they learned to program
|
`----

Remember he is talking about secretaries in early days of computing
learning Emacs and learning programming in the process.  I am sure
secretaries had no CS degrees and more importantly they belonged to a
period when computers were not common place and were quite the cutting
edge.  I just laugh when young kids in this day of Google complain that
Emacs is primitive and is difficult to learn.  I consider it a joke.  

That you have to be super-human to learn and use Emacs is more of a myth
and in reality has no truth to it.  We can learn a lot from these
secretaries and each other...

> Like I said, I don't consider that advanced, 

Whatever I don't know is advanced for me.

For example, what sounds like a basic move in kick boxing to you would
be advanced for me.  This is because I know nothing about kick boxing.

By same token, fringe-mode is advanced for me.  Because I never knew
fringe-mode when this conversation began.

> and besides I read every book on Emacs I have gotten hold of, plus
> every Emacs chapter in every general Linux book I ever saw. To assume
> I didn't read anything is in itself an insult, and incorrect at that.

Books on Emacs are old.  They should be lagging behind on quite a good
amount of stuff.  I learn a lot by listening to conversation here.  For
example, I learnt about fringe-mode as part of this thread.

One commmand that I frequently use is this,

  C-h d something

Another thing that I use is,

  C-h r i something
  C-h r I something

  M-x customize-group RET something RET

I also look at the source code 

  C-h f fringe-mode

and read the help buffer.  I click on the file and also all the
hyperlinks to see what all is there to learn about fringe-mode, for
example.

You can add the following to your .emacs.

 (find-function-setup-keys)

 C-x F fringe-mode 
 C-x V fringe-bitmaps

will take you directly to the source code.  

I look at the comments in the source file to see what the author "says"
about his creation.

----------------------------------------------------------------

It all boils down to how will you pick up on something that is not
documented in the books.  Read the manual.  Look up the documentation.
Peek in to Emacs by setting a break point.  Have conversation with
others who are familiar with internals etc.

Most importantly one learns by imitation, by just going through the
motions, without thinking too much about motions themselves.  Yes, you
are spot on how to learn the punches ...

Sometimes, I try to answer someone because I myself don't know how it is
done.  In the very process I have hit upon gold numerous times.

If you aspire to become a Technologist, there is no end to the road.

----------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I will offer as suggestion is to stick to the theme of the
post.  The GNU Emacs Help forum is about conversation about Emacs.

Here the conversation shouldn't about Emanuel, Eli, Drew, Juanama,
Rustom or even RMS.  The conversation should be about Emacs and nothing
else.

So you should talk less about yourself.  For example, there is no need
for us to know that you are a Tech enthusiast.  What we want to know is
that you are an Emacs user and you have experience and insight to share.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> One does not have to be a Technologist to use or be proficient
> with Emacs.

I read your entire post and tried to learn from it, but it was a
bit long so I have to print it and read it again. But, I'd like to
mention that I think that while *all* people who use a computer
should master an editor, because typing is so common in modern
life, I absolutely don't think all people should use Emacs the way
I do.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

> But, I'd like to mention that I think that while *all* people who use
> a computer should master an editor, because typing is so common in
> modern life, 

I agree.

> I absolutely don't think all people should use Emacs the way I do.

Yes, I see that you have fairly large customization of key bindings and
stuff.  I wouldn't recommend it for others.

But if you share your customization in a blog post or a emacswiki page
or even a "self post" in this forum, I am sure other like minded Tech
enthusiast will have a lot to learn from it.

I think you should share your customization with all of us.  But start a
different thread.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Remember this forum is not a social networking site.  There are no
upvotes, downvotes, reputation points or comment karmas.  We just have
normal human conversation.  People try to be honest in this forum and so
naturally they get angry, upset, angry, happy, elated, smug, bored etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------

You are NOT new to Emacs.  But you are NEW to this forum.  So we really
don't what Emanuel is.  We have a new fellow in the boxing ring and we
are all afraid how his punches are going to be.  That's all.  It's just
anxiety, nothing else.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Please stick to the topic of the thread and just stick to talking about
Emacs.  If one needs to become a better Technology then one should
improves his focus and also the partner's focus.  I hope you understand
what you I am trying to say.

You should help your partner focus better.  This you can do only if you
improve your own focus.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Stefan Monnier]

Hello guys!

What's the weather like this morning?


        Stefan

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Chris Van Dusen]

On Jul 26, 2013, at 8:34 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> 
> Hello guys!
> 
> What's the weather like this morning?
> 
> 
>        Stefan
> 
> 

Partly sunny with a chance for smiles!

Chris.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Rustom Mody]

On Friday, July 26, 2013 7:04:20 PM UTC+5:30, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Hello guys!
> 
> What's the weather like this morning?
> 
> 
>         Stefan

Cool and bracing! Coming for a jog?

Well...
Actually when I look out I find its night.
You say its morning.
How to settle this?
Just learnt of a new technology for unambiguously resolving non-determinate questions -- its called boxing ring.
You and I get in. If you give me a black eye, I'll agree its morning.
If I give you a black eye, you must agree its night.

What say?

RE: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Drew Adams]

> If you give me a black eye, I'll agree its morning.
> If I give you a black eye, you must agree its night.

With a black enough eye it is always night for the black-eye-ee.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Rustom Mody]

On Friday, July 26, 2013 10:31:59 PM UTC+5:30, Drew Adams wrote:
> > If you give me a black eye, I'll agree its morning.
> 
> > If I give you a black eye, you must agree its night.
> 
> 
> With a black enough eye it is always night for the black-eye-ee.

Heh!
Drew's version of Godel's theorem:
If I win I win, if I lose i win!

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Rustom Mody]

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 4:25:38 PM UTC+5:30, Jambunathan K wrote:
> Here is a small story, that quickly summarizes what "skill"ed means.
> Educational, for young and old farts alike.

Nice one :-)

> We don't want to drive Emanuel away.  I hope he sticks around in this
> list and helps others with their queries.

Heartily agree. emacs REALLY needs young blood.

> I care little for the old farts who show no tolerance for enthusiasm of
> an young man.
> 
> I find Emanuel enthusiastic (and a bit chirpy) but definitely not
> arrogant.  He has shown his Emacs Lisp snippets and I have no doubt that
> he has good working knowledge of Emacs.

I dont see where the questions of enthusiasm or arrogance come.
Just some elders getting fed-up with young-uns that dont listen…

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I hope he sticks around in this list and helps others with their
> queries.

I don't know my question/answer ratio, but I can guarantee you (and
everyone else) that I never hesitate to help. Especially in my
early days here, I wrote lots of answers. But I think that is
coincidence, and related to the questions/problems discussed, and
not me being "tilted". No, I'm not going anywhere!

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I don't understand why you say that.  There was nothing rude or
> "rough" in what I wrote, not a single rude or offensive word.
>
> I gave a comprehensive answer to the OP's questions.  I then
> suggested, given his apparent lack of knowledge about the stuff
> being discussed, to read about that in the manuals.  Since not
> knowing something is not something one should be ashamed of, how
> can a _suggestion_ to learn about that be "rude"?  And if it
> _is_ considered rude, I wonder what isn't.

I'm not ashamed of anything. What you said was basically:

"You should read, and as you don't even understand A, you
shouldn't mess with B, that's too advanced." (pseudo-quote, but
that's what you said)

But (1) I've read, and I'll read more, (2) I was in the process of
understanding A (at least that of A that mattered for the issue at
hand), and (3) I still don't believe B is particularly advanced or
in any way beyond my (or anyone else's) level.

That makes it even more rude, but even if you were absolutely
right - I think you should never, ever discourage
activity. Activity is the basis of everything. Discourage from
alcoholism, street fighting, etc., but not from people being
active with technology. I can't see that ever being the right
thing to do.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 19:23:14 +0200
> 
> What you said was basically:
> 
> "You should read, and as you don't even understand A, you
> shouldn't mess with B, that's too advanced." (pseudo-quote, but
> that's what you said)

I said nothing of the kind.  What I said was basically "It's quite
clear that you don't understand the issues discussed here, so I
suggest to go read about that, and then you'd probably understand much
better the solutions proposed to you."

> That makes it even more rude, but even if you were absolutely
> right - I think you should never, ever discourage
> activity.

I never discouraged anything.  On the contrary, I _encouraged_ you to
learn more, and, by providing the solution and its explanation, also
encouraged you to continue your activities, whatever they are, having
gained some more insight than what you had before.

"Rude"? how about some "thank you" for a change?

You are welcome, btw.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> What you said was basically:
>> 
>> "You should read, and as you don't even understand A, you
>> shouldn't mess with B, that's too advanced." (pseudo-quote, but
>> that's what you said)
>
> I said nothing of the kind.  What I said was basically "It's
> quite clear that you don't understand the issues discussed here,
> so I suggest to go read about that, and then you'd probably
> understand much better the solutions proposed to you."

I don't believe that. I think my summary is much more
accurate. Anyone can hit the archive and make up their own
minds. But, the past is the past. I'm done if you are.

But - even what you write now: apart from some confusion regarding
TTY/X terminal Emacs vs. X GUI Emacs, my understanding grew by the
post - which is natural - and how could it be in any other way? If
the person asking a question already understood everything about
it, why ask?

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:02:31 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> What you said was basically:
> >> 
> >> "You should read, and as you don't even understand A, you
> >> shouldn't mess with B, that's too advanced." (pseudo-quote, but
> >> that's what you said)
> >
> > I said nothing of the kind.  What I said was basically "It's
> > quite clear that you don't understand the issues discussed here,
> > so I suggest to go read about that, and then you'd probably
> > understand much better the solutions proposed to you."
> 
> I don't believe that. I think my summary is much more
> accurate.

I've told you what I meant.  No one else can know that better than I
do.

> But - even what you write now: apart from some confusion regarding
> TTY/X terminal Emacs vs. X GUI Emacs, my understanding grew by the
> post - which is natural - and how could it be in any other way? If
> the person asking a question already understood everything about
> it, why ask?

I didn't say you shouldn't ask.  I answered your questions.

What I'm saying is that there's a limit to what can be explained in a
message posted to a forum.  The manual has much more.  You'd rob
yourself if you limit your learning to what people say here, even if
we assume, wrongly, that no one of them is ever mistaken.  Not only
will you learn more from the documentation, your questions will become
deeper, more sophisticated, and more interesting to answer.

It's your call.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> I don't believe that. I think my summary is much more accurate.
>
> I've told you what I meant.  No one else can know that better
> than I do.

Let's drop that discussion, OK? The archive doesn't lie and anyone
can hit it if there is such a strange desire, and make up their
own minds if that was rude or not.

> What I'm saying is that there's a limit to what can be explained
> in a message posted to a forum.  The manual has much more.
> You'd rob yourself if you limit your learning to what people say
> here, even if we assume, wrongly, that no one of them is ever
> mistaken.  Not only will you learn more from the documentation,
> your questions will become deeper, more sophisticated, and more
> interesting to answer.

Absolutely, and I read what I can find. But, I *still* don't think
it is a good answer to any question - "read the manual" - I just
don't think that is productive.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> But, I *still* don't think it is a good answer to any question - "read
> the manual" - I just don't think that is productive.

Yes, one shouldn't say "read the manual".  But do you want Eli or anyone
else to Copy-Paste the whole manual for you.  That will not be helpful.

Eli helped you.

You should read the manual whether Eli says or it not.

If you tinker with gadgets but have never seen the spec sheet, then your
claims will be seen as bogus.  The only way to convince would be to show
that you have read the relevant parts of the manual and understood it.

We are also Technologist.  Remember that.  If someone says, "I know X",
we don't immediately say "Wonderful!".  We simply say "Prove it" or
"Show me the patch".  This is simply how Technologist talk and work.  It
is this very attitude that makes us all Technologists. You shouldn't be
upset with it or be offended with such a response.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Bob Proulx]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Anyone can hit the archive and make up their own
> minds. But, the past is the past. I'm done if you are.

Anyone searching the archive will find that Eli Zaretskii has a very
long and distinguished history of contributing positively to the Emacs
project, as well as others.  I always pay special attention to his
postings.  I often learn very useful things from them.

Bob

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Rustom Mody]

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:13:35 PM UTC+5:30, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 03:34:41 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Rustom Mody
> > 
> > Ok Eli spoke more roughly/rudely than necessary.
> 
> I don't understand why you say that.  There was nothing rude or
> "rough" in what I wrote, not a single rude or offensive word.


In human communication there are two orthogonal dimensions:
- the factual/predicative line
- the emotive rapport/empathy line

As for the first, whatever you say is true. And it is more or less what I said.
As for the second if you read your last parenthetical note, you will hopefully see that the 'even' packs rather a hard punch.

No dont get me wrong -- if you feel it necessary to pack that punch, thats ok.
In any case I am the guy who 'pulls rank' :-). In my book thats not abusive nor complimentary, just facts of how civilized life runs.

On this list this means that guys like you, Juanma etc are the givers, guys like Emanuel,me* are the receivers. This has two sides:
1. You know the stuff, we generally dont
2. You make the stuff, we (mostly thanklessly) use it.

So if that means that you say "Piss off!" to someone, you are entitled and that someone should lump it.

Well so much for the micro/individual level.

At the macro level, emacs needs Emanuel (and a few hundred more such) more than the Emanuel^100 need emacs**.  Keeping that in mind, just consider this a humble*** request to handle over-sensitive noobs with kid-gloves.



* Yeah the irony of how Emanuel sees the ganging up!!
** And the double irony. Being an old-fart-user myself I fall neatly between two stools -- Neither a dev nor an enthu kid.
*** Yeah! I pull rank at every point :-) 

> I gave a comprehensive answer to the OP's questions.  I then
> suggested, given his apparent lack of knowledge about the stuff being
> discussed, to read about that in the manuals.  Since not knowing
> something is not something one should be ashamed of,

Yeah that certainly seems to be the problem here: "unskilled" is being heard as an abuse.

-------------
To Emanuel:  My apologies for anything that I said which caused hurt.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> On this list this means that guys like you, Juanma etc are the
> givers, guys like Emanuel,me* are the receivers.

Wrong.

1) I've written answers as well. I don't know how to compute a
ratio, if possible, but I've been active on lots of places. Here

http://unix.stackexchange.com/users/13136/emanuel-berg

you see that I have 74 answers, to 62 questions. I haven't changed
my personality since I left that site, so I suspect I have a
fairly even ratio here. (Except for all this meta discussion.)

2) Even if I were only asking questions, there is nothing egoistic
about that, because the questions and everything is public. I
usually include all my preceding efforts (usually Elisp), and I
don't doubt that people read my questions, and the subsequent
discussion, and learn from the whole process, from the question to
the last answer.

> This has two sides: 1. You know the stuff, we generally dont
> 2. You make the stuff, we (mostly thanklessly) use it.

Wrong. I know stuff, and I make stuff.

> So if that means that you say "Piss off!" to someone, you are
> entitled and that someone should lump it.

Wrong. You should never be rude and especially not when people are
productive. There is no balance. You can't do some good things,
and then expect to get away with bad things.

> ... just consider this a humble*** request to handle
> over-sensitive noobs with kid-gloves.

Completely unheard of...! You are such a *jerk*!

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

Emanuel

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> 1) I've written answers as well. I don't know how to compute a
> ratio, if possible, but I've been active on lots of places. Here
>
> http://unix.stackexchange.com/users/13136/emanuel-berg
>
> you see that I have 74 answers, to 62 questions. I haven't changed
> my personality since I left that site, so I suspect I have a
> fairly even ratio here. (Except for all this meta discussion.)

Just log out of stackexchange and stackoverflow.  Forget about your
reputation.  Come over to the Emacs official forums.  I assure you will
become a better Technologist.

In this forum, there are folks who have used punch cards.  I don't think
SE or SO can boast of such *veteran* users.

Btw, helping Emacs *even* in other forums is good.  But being present on
the official forum is altogether a different experience.

ps: I am surprised to see a kick boxer who is shy of taking punches that
were given in good spirit.  Remember, you have had your share of punches
at others.  Let's all retire from the boxing ring, smile, shake hands,
have a cup of chocolate. 

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Just log out of stackexchange and stackoverflow.  Forget about
> your reputation.  Come over to the Emacs official forums.  I
> assure you will become a better Technologist.
>
> In this forum, there are folks who have used punch cards.  I
> don't think SE or SO can boast of such *veteran* users.
>
> Btw, helping Emacs *even* in other forums is good.  But being
> present on the official forum is altogether a different
> experience.

I have dropped all those sites for those and other reasons. I like
Usenet so much more because I can use Gnus: configurable in Elisp,
a text-only interface, and all the common cursor-movement (etc.)
shortcuts from Emacs. And, all the other things that I don't like
with those SX sites (reputation, no side-threads, etc.)

> ps: I am surprised to see a kick boxer who is shy of taking
> punches that were given in good spirit.  Remember, you have had
> your share of punches at others.  Let's all retire from the
> boxing ring, smile, shake hands, have a cup of chocolate.

Yes! Please, stop.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

> I have dropped all those sites for those and other reasons. I like
> Usenet so much more because I can use Gnus: configurable in Elisp,
> a text-only interface, and all the common cursor-movement (etc.)
> shortcuts from Emacs. And, all the other things that I don't like
> with those SX sites (reputation, no side-threads, etc.)

Good decision.

>> ps: I am surprised to see a kick boxer who is shy of taking
>> punches that were given in good spirit.  Remember, you have had
>> your share of punches at others.  Let's all retire from the
>> boxing ring, smile, shake hands, have a cup of chocolate.
>
> Yes! Please, stop.

Ok, I will.  Look at the tips that I offered you and share it with
others if you find it helpful.

I will be happy that way.  I am too old to give or take punches.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 11:06:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>
> 
> So if that means that you say "Piss off!" to someone, you are entitled and that someone should lump it.

It could have been interpreted as "Piss off!" if I wrote _only_ the
last remark.  But I didn't.  I answered the questions _first_.

> Yeah that certainly seems to be the problem here: "unskilled" is being heard as an abuse.

It shouldn't be.  No one is born with knowledge, so everyone is
"unskilled" at some point about something.  Being pointed to the fact
that one doesn't know something is not a shame and not an offense.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> It could have been interpreted as "Piss off!" if I wrote _only_ the
> last remark.  But I didn't.  I answered the questions _first_.

That doesn't matter. There is no balance. If you are rude, it
doesn't matter if you were nice all day before you turned rude.

>> Yeah that certainly seems to be the problem here: "unskilled"
>> is being heard as an abuse.
>
> It shouldn't be.  No one is born with knowledge, so everyone is
> "unskilled" at some point about something.  Being pointed to the
> fact that one doesn't know something is not a shame and not an
> offense.

I agree, but that's not what happened, and was never my point.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

broken thread (was: don't show the $-bar that...)

[Nicolas Richard]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> It could have been interpreted as "Piss off!" if I wrote _only_ the
>> last remark.  But I didn't.  I answered the questions _first_.
>
> That doesn't matter. There is no balance. If you are rude, it
> doesn't matter if you were nice all day before you turned rude.

I don't think it's a question of balance. I could elaborate a little
bit, but IMO it's beside the point anyway.

What I want to say is : if he says there was no rudeness involved, you
don't lose much (if anything) by trusting him. As hard as can be, you
should assume good faith for some time before deciding that someone is
actually insulting you.

Maybe you still think that it *felt* rude, but then you should feel
relieved, now that you know it wasn't meant to be rude.

Ok, now I have a problem : this thread looks broken on my Gnus. What can
be done to avoid this state ? e.g. when on the message I'm now
responding to, I can't get to its parent using "A r" in gnus. It seems
also broken on the web archive at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2013-07/msg00462.html

-- 
Nico.

[*] Obviously it should apply to many people, including myself. Well, I
find it incredibly hard to follow this. Even with close relatives. This
is off topic though.

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Jambunathan K]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> skilled individual

Here is a small story, that quickly summarizes what "skill"ed means.
Educational, for young and old farts alike.

,---- Source: http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/concentrate.html
|
| After winning several archery contests, the young and rather boastful
| champion challenged a Zen master who was renowned for his skill as an
| archer. The young man demonstrated remarkable technical proficiency
| when he hit a distant bull's eye on his first try, and then split that
| arrow with his second shot. "There," he said to the old man, "see if
| you can match that!" Undisturbed, the master did not draw his bow, but
| rather motioned for the young archer to follow him up the
| mountain. Curious about the old fellow's intentions, the champion
| followed him high into the mountain until they reached a deep chasm
| spanned by a rather flimsy and shaky log. Calmly stepping out onto the
| middle of the unsteady and certainly perilous bridge, the old master
| picked a far away tree as a target, drew his bow, and fired a clean,
| direct hit. "Now it is your turn," he said as he gracefully stepped
| back onto the safe ground. Staring with terror into the seemingly
| bottomless and beckoning abyss, the young man could not force himself
| to step out onto the log, no less shoot at a target. "You have much
| skill with your bow," the master said, sensing his challenger's
| predicament, "but you have little skill with the mind that lets loose
| the shot."
|
`----

Re: don't show the $-bar that indicates text before and/or after the window view, horizontally

[Emanuel Berg]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Here is a small story, that quickly summarizes what "skill"ed
> means.  Educational, for young and old farts alike.

Yes, they are both skilled. It is a tie, because the old guy
didn't do what the young guy did, either.

But, to break the tie, to me, the young guy won, because the young
guy followed the old guy up the mountain. The old guy didn't even
bother visiting the young guy's "domain".

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573