From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 06:58:13 +0200 Message-ID: <86r28h7t7e.fsf@zoho.eu> References: <83r28z8zl9.fsf@gnu.org> <20190515210924.sijzy6mnpgzkt4gm@Ergus> <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> <838sv6cmwt.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516202327.5cgy2s4kppy3ahxa@Ergus> <871s0yqg2i.fsf@telefonica.net> <3210C8E9-7A74-47D6-81A0-470948E6D09C@gmail.com> <87r28xq0j1.fsf@telefonica.net> <5495188F-7A7D-4E50-82C4-E2CBABD8633D@gmail.com> <20190517060858.xoddgzyudvo4p2oo@Ergus> Reply-To: Emanuel Berg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="228765"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 29 06:58:44 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hVqfi-000xHg-FO for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 29 May 2019 06:58:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47180 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVqfh-0006H7-IG for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 29 May 2019 00:58:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50864) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVqfW-0006Gq-VJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 May 2019 00:58:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVqfS-0007ZN-Ui for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 May 2019 00:58:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [195.159.176.226] (port=60766 helo=blaine.gmane.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVqfR-0007YB-2Z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 May 2019 00:58:26 -0400 Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hVqfM-000wqa-Tn for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 May 2019 06:58:20 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:O051T9KGZB/MvwPbAMB8oP0EuP4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 195.159.176.226 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120686 Archived-At: Ergus wrote: > But for new users, lisp looks like ancient > Cyrillic. Again this disrespect for the new user. LISP is from 1958, CL is from 1984 and Elisp is from 1985. [1] Anyone here wants to raise their hand "I was there 1958, and LISP felt just right with the times!" I was there in 1984 and 1985, but my interests then weren't programming. I discovered Lisp much later and it didn't feel like ancient Cyrillic, or paleo-Etruscan for that matter. It felt interesting, awesome, and practical, and that's why I went with it (to a large extent). Despite never getting rich or famous, nor a Lisp expert, I don't regret it for a microsecond. To paraphrase tomás, that is $ echo $(( 1 * 10**(-6) )) seconds 9.9999999999999995e-07 seconds So it is pretty clear for these computations that you again underestimate people, big time. LISP (or Lisp) wasn't on everyone's lips, lispers or not, when I found it! When I found it thru Emacs, I had never heard of it! Yet I liked it instantly! I wasn't in the least intimidated, on the contrary, I was attracted, just like light is to a celestial body! Again, why can't this happen again? Young people today are smarter and more dedicated than I was - well, perhaps not, now that I think about it :) Well, smarter and more dedicated in a different way, at least. But in any case, they are smart and dedicated enough to not be scared away by the ultimate terror, ancient Lisp! It doesn't work like that. Young people are *brave*! > It is actually a prove that being consistent > can success, even when not following the > standards in the rest of the world. Consistency for large projects are virtually impossible. And Emacs is not large, it is enormous. I can't keep my one room bike repair shop "consistent" for long, and it's just me and ~10 other guys being active there! Just forget about it. Do the best you can, yes, then live with it. Don't be all Asperger about it. It is a dead end. Part of success is being organized, yes, like Amundsen on the pole. But a much bigger part is being prepared, dedicated, brave, knowledgeable, and confident. Having your equipment in good order gives you some advantage, and some confidence for that matter, but it ain't enough and never will be. You don't reach the pole by counting (no idea what they are called in English) - you don't reach to pole by counting and putting them i orders of size, weight and color. You get to the pole by trying them on and experiencing first hand if they are too long, too short, needs to be of a different material, or are just right. And if some other guys has it the other way around, and even has his own name for them, so be it. Learn his name as well and let's be off already. [1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/COMP-HIST -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 https://dataswamp.org/~incal