From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: elispintro's original (Was: feature request) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:30:36 +0200 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <86o9fsi3lv.fsf@zoho.com> References: <8636xhpc6g.fsf@zoho.com> <8636xfnkmo.fsf@zoho.com> <83muvmuh8l.fsf@gnu.org> <91797FAA-FB8A-4C97-BA0B-7FD1A879B341@scratch.space> <3505f10b-ca40-43d0-a403-5ce6bc5996e2@googlegroups.com> <86po09k12k.fsf@zoho.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1530380009 32282 195.159.176.226 (30 Jun 2018 17:33:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 17:33:29 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 30 19:33:25 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fZJkT-0008Gx-3y for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:33:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47522 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fZJmY-0003Jp-8I for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 13:35:34 -0400 X-Received: by 2002:adf:bd8e:: with SMTP id l14-v6mr20719wrh.11.1530379838223; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 10:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!20-v6no3137243wmu.0!news-out.google.com!n13-v6ni11585wmc.0!nntp.google.com!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 64 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cRcuMnzjCdtBkcQq4LWXQQ.user.gioia.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:m6chOwblRZ4TgpnERcF0Db/ISHI= Mail-Copies-To: never X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.3 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:223186 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:117309 Archived-At: Marcin Borkowski wrote: >>> If programming IS an art >> >> Programming is not an art, it is a *craft*. > > Does there exist any *craft* which is not an > *art*, too? Yes: programming :) One can also think of mechanics, bricklaying, fighting (altho there was a game for Neo Geo, if anyone could ever afford that machine, called "Art of Fighting", and boxing is sometimes referred to as "the Sweet Science of bruising/self defense"), moreover war (just think of "Warcraft: Tides of Darkness", altho war is clearly an art in "Art of War", 5th century BC, as well as in "Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back"), with probably more examples as well! Seriously, if anyone were to analyze this in a dedicated way, first thing would be to define what is "art", "craft", "science", and "engineering". And besides isn't undisputable art, like artistic painting, very much a craft as well? And with modern tools, like synthetic brushes and plastic paint, perhaps there is even an engineering and scientific part of it as well! But when one says that "programming isn't an art, it is a craft" those words are taken in the popular understanding of the words. E.g., tell a bunch of kids programming is an art, a few of them will consider themselves masters already (while not knowing how to do it one bit), while the others will think it is nothing for them, just something for a selected few, touched by the divine spirit! But tell 'em it is a craft and maybe some of them, the most intelligent, will understand what it amounts to is actually pressing buttons with your fingers and then figuring out what just happened. PS. Just because programming, i.e. writing code, isn't an art doesn't mean the end result cannot be a piece of art in some minds, or have artistic qualities and/or ingredients. For example, the Super Famicom/SNES game Chrono Trigger - no why isn't that art, if a Doors record or EPO novel is? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573